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Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 1:33 AM   
33willys


 

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I'm building an Elder 40 and have just discovered a slight twist to the rear of the fuselage.  The Longerons are 1/4" square Basswood with vertical Basswood braces.  The stab does not sit square with the wing and I don't want to sand the longeron to compensate.  Can the longerons be wet, tweeked and clamped until dry or do I need to remove the braces, then square up the longerons and reinsert the braces?



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RE: Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 1:36 AM   
Live Wire


 

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 3:43 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		I would say it depends how bad it is..I would be inclined to cut it loose and reglue it straight..I have a fuse jig though and that really helps...

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 3:58 AM   
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Status: offline 		I would get some debonder and re-do it. I tried steam once on a fuselag and did not have much luck until i un-glued some of tthe connections to fix the twist. Thats my opinion.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 5:56 AM   
KitBuilder



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Status: online 		Agree with above.. it it's a "slight" twist... you would only need to loosen a couple subegports to correct it. I am assuming the longerons did not have the slight twist to begin with.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/18/2013 4:18 PM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		Good new/bad news!  The longerons were not twisted to begin with.  Bad new is that instructions said not to use CA glue on basswood so I used 5 minute epoxy which rules out using a debonder.  Good news is that the epoxy did not hold that good and I was able to coax the braces out.  Now its a case of how many of the braces should I remove to get things back to "normal".   Good news is that I have plenty of Basswood left.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/19/2013 1:13 AM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		OK, got a 1" plywood base and clamped the fuse to it so that everything is square.  I'll have to make new braces but what are the chances of the longerons resuming their twist when I unbolt the fuse from my board?  Can't cross brace. 

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/19/2013 5:00 PM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		May have run into a regluing problem.  I used 5 minute epoxy to glue the braces on the Basswood longerons.  After removing the braces and sanding as best I can there is still some epoxy soaked into the wood.  To reinstall the braces I would like to use a carpenders glue (Elmers) but not sure I can get a good bond because the glue can't seep into the longerons.  Will it cause a weak joint?  If so, what type of glue should I use?

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 2:22 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		Sometimes you can cut a little gusset to put alogside a glue joint if you feel that it is not strong enough...I don't know if that is the case here or not..

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 3:56 AM   
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Status: offline 		If it's just a little off, sand one side of the wing saddle. The drawback? If the gear is straight one wing tip will sit closer to the ground. I had a bipe I did this one. I owned a total of three of the same plane and the twisted one flew the best. Go figure.

David

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 4:08 AM   
KitBuilder



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Status: online 		I like the titebond wood glues.

You want fresh wood but as stated above.. the fresh wood you ahve along with gussets could work. For hard woods like bass.... I usually score some lines with my exacto (not deep.. just some lines) to help the glue get a bite. Usually with a longeron type fuse you can cross brace (X) inside the fuse. I find that helps tremendously with strenthinging things up rather than just the box of longerons with cross braces top, bottom and sides.
Can you post any pics?

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 4:16 AM   
GaryHarris



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 33willys

I'm building an Elder 40 and have just discovered a slight twist to the rear of the fuselage.  The Longerons are 1/4'' square Basswood with vertical Basswood braces.  The stab does not sit square with the wing and I don't want to sand the longeron to compensate.  Can the longerons be wet, tweeked and clamped until dry or do I need to remove the braces, then square up the longerons and reinsert the braces?




Sand where the stab mounts making sure it matches the wing, and if you have to adjust the wing saddle, so be it. All fuses are twisted, just try to match up the horizontal planes between the stab and the wing.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 5:32 AM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		It's a standard Elder 40 with the back open so there is no way I can put gussets around the braces and cross bracing is out because of the pushrods.  I like the idea of scoring the basswood to give it some tooth.  Got things squared up and can only glue one thing at a time, let it dry overnight then move to the next piece.  Alternative is to have a plane that does barrel rolls real good...and nothing else!  Thanks for the idea, believe me they help.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/20/2013 3:34 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		The problem with the Elder is the design of the rear of the fuselage. With just the uprights and cross members used in the rear of the fuselage, it has no resistance to twisting. If you can jig up the fuselage to square, all you have to do is add diagonal bracing, which is what they did 100 years ago when they built full sized airplanes in this manner. Use thin carbon fiber pultruded rods, which have the strength and will look like the the cables used in the real airplane. Once they are epoxied into place in an "x" pattern in each square bay of the tail boom, the fuselage will be locked into the shape you jig it at.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 4:39 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		The Elder uses something called trusswork and gussets to keep it straight ..I haven't built an Elder but I looked at the plans and this truss work looks like it could be very strong..with out it the fuse would flop around and have nothing to hold it straight...I am not sure when this truss work goes in or what it is made of..It looks like it could be some kind of wire or string...Looking it over has got me wanting to build one..I have always liked the looks of an Elder..Maybe a 1/4 scale on floats..

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 4:41 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		The Elder uses something called trusswork and gussets to keep it straight ..I haven't built an Elder but I looked at the plans and this truss work looks like it could be very strong..with out it the fuse would flop around and have nothing to hold it straight...I am not sure when this truss work goes in or what it is made of..It looks like it could be some kind of wire or string...Looking it over has got me wanting to build one..I have always liked the looks of an Elder..Maybe a 1/4 scale on floats..

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 5:39 AM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		There are several Elder 40 build threads on this site.  The strings (truss work) is non structual art work.  Longerons and braces are all basswood.  Can't add "X" braces because the dowel pushrods run thru the middle.  Would not look right with plastic or steel.  By the way, the plans also inclue full scale floats. 

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 8:52 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks 33 willys I read the reviews on the Top flite kit...Our club hosts western Canadas largest float fly every fall...There is an Elder that shows up every year..It is a beautiful aircraft and a real croud pleaser..I think you will be happy with yours when you are finished..What are you using for power? A nice 4 stroke would really suit it..I have a OS 46 ax I would probably use or maybe a OSFS81..The 81 might be a little too big though...It not a very big plane and dosent look like it would do well over powered..

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 2:34 PM   
33willys


 

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Just getting back into this sport (hobby?) after 30+ years.  Back then everything was a kit and one I built was the UGLY STICK.  Hated it from the start because it wasn't a "real" airplane.  My planes don't have to be exact scale but must look somewhat like the real thing.  The Elder 40 was never a real airplane but does look close enough to something they may have (should have?) built back then.  The plans call for a .56 four stroke but it's been my  observation that this reccomendations are alway under powered.  I picked up a Saito FA72 for a good price and will use it.  Don't have to be full throttle all the time.  From reading the reviews it is just a slow Sunday flyer and a Chevy big block would not get more speed out of it. 



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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 2:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		I beleve there may be some differances between the Special Edition version and the original kits that go back to the eightys. At any rate this is one that I helped out a buddy with several years back and he was a bit in over his head. Its possible also that the original kits may have not used the basswood on the longerons, at this point I do not recall. What I do remember is it was some what floppy on the rear and solution was very simple, I just added small triangular gussets as indicated by Bikerbc. Unobtrusive and retains the the looks.

I tested this one with an old K&B .40 and flew pretty much like a typical forty sport airplane. As you can see the tiny gussets are hardly noticible but do much to improve rigidity.

Now this is purely just my thoughts but remember this is not a scale airplane, it is what I call a Characture Airplane. The idea is to represent a feeling of a period. Perhaps without all the problems of the drive with to acheve absolute scale fidelity that the scale devotees are dedicated to.

Characture Airplanes have been popular throughout modeling as long as I can remember and I have always loved them.

Anyway here is that Elder and its still flown on occassion by my friend:

John

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/22/2013 8:19 PM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		I have seen and have even had some ugly sticks that were dressed up to look like antique aircraft..Open cockpit with guns and dummy radial engines..They really can have character..I like a good ugly stick...They fly great ...You can do whatever you want to them to make them look real. Or maybe a Snoopy made out of styrofoam with floppy ears goggles and a scarf ..

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/23/2013 2:05 AM   
52larry52


 

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Status: offline 		I built an Elder 40 a couple years ago and also had trouble finding a glue that would hold the open basswood rear structure together. CA wouldn't even begin to hold the sticks together. Epoxie wasn't much better. A tube of "Ambroid" glue came to the rescue. I used ambroid everywhere you were glueing something to the basswood frame on that airplane, including the gusset plates. It has held up well for me with no structural problems in service. Plus I love the smell of Ambroid.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/23/2013 3:21 AM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: offline 		The best part of using Ambroid was after a good build session, settling down in the couch and chewing if off your fingers while catching another episode of Bonanza

John

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/23/2013 3:48 AM   
52larry52


 

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Status: offline 		John, Or watching Gunsmoke! Yeah, I used it in the late 50's in the first edition of my model building life. That's part of why I happen to have a tube of Ambroid in the shop at the time I was building the Elder. I was in a LHS and saw a display of Ambroid, so I bought a tube as a nostalgia thing. I didn't have a need for it at the time of purchase, just wanted to have some as I remembered the smell as I built rubber band and berkley 1/2a kits as a kid. And lo and behold I needed it on the Elder. It's still good glue IMHO.

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RE: Fuse twist - 1/23/2013 3:48 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		I dont know what it is about Ambroid..When I first started building that was my favorite glue..It worked great..My first real kit was a Sterling Piper Tri Pacer. Glued almost completly with Ambroid..Some Trainer....But it was what I spotted in the hobby store and I didn't know any better...When I finished it and took it to the field the guys wouldn't let me fly it..It was too beautiful and beyond my skill leval...Anyway now when I try to use Ambroid it just will not work for me...I love the smell...I have tried to double glue when it soaks in and given lots of time for drying..I just cant understand why it wont work..I have tried fresh tubes and made sure that they were not old stock etc...I still have 6 tubes unopened...

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