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LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 8:06 AM   
ameyam


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I have a Hobbico HD starter (suitable for a 180 size engine). I use it mostly for testing engines at home when I do a fresh install or throttle linkage adjustment and want to test my idle without having my arm fall off.

Now, I have just test flown a Reactor Bipe with a inverted 110FS, This has a wicked kickback and the idle doesnt stabiliste untill warmed up properly. Last weekend, I had to resort to borrowing a fellow flier's portable starter to start it everytime. So the question is

1) Should I get the HK portable starter? (The HD hobbico one I have is very heavy)
2) In either case I need a 12V power source. I dont want to take the Hobbico Lead acid battery and I dont want to use LiPo for obvious reasons. I have the 3200mAh 30C LiFe which is spare. I could get a Deans 2-in-1 series connector for the batteries and another 3200mAh LiFe and connect them in series to the starter, whichever I chose. Will this work?

Ameyam

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 1:27 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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Status: offline 		What is the "obvious reasons" not to use a LiPo? I've been running dual 3s LiPo batteries on a Sullivan Dynatron for years.

That aside, the answer to your question is yes it will work fine.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 1:46 PM   
jetmech05


 

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Status: offline 		Andy is 3200 mAh enough power? Remember in series voltage is additive but current remains the same

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 1:53 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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Status: offline 		I run dual 3S 2200Mah on my Sullivan.

He's talking 13v or so fully charged.

It might not be starting Cessna's with it like mine will but it should do the job as well as any other battery chemistry of a similar voltage, if not better.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 2:20 PM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: offline 		If you want superior starter performance you need to increase the voltage within limits. I cannot ever imagine trying to crank that installation effectively using only 12 or 13 volts on that hobbico starter. To truly realize what your 12 volt rated starter can do you need to at least use 14.6 or 18volts. I would not go over that for your starter.

I have no idea about that battery chemistry but regardless when it comes to our model engine starters voltage is king. High capacity is great but it only extends the cranking time.

John

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 2:31 PM   
goirish



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Status: offline 		I use a 6c lipo for a couple of years. Like Barracudahockey, what are the obvious reasons.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 3:25 PM   
AMA 74894



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Status: offline 		My buddy Geoff uses a 4S/3200 Lipo pack and it ROCKS... there's another similar thread regarding lipos and 12V starters:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11367766/tm.htm

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 3:49 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
4cell LiPo (14,8V) 2000mAh in my Sullivan starter!
Wow! What a difference!

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 7:06 PM   
opjose



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One thing to bare in mind is that our starters have fairly heavy windings.

They are designed to produce a good bit of torque against a fully stalled ( stopped ) engine.

As long as you do not apply high voltages for more than a few seconds you should be fine.

As previously stated, the switches may be more problematic, but I haven't had problems thus far with higher voltages... up to 24v.



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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 7:34 PM   
ameyam


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

have been using the same starter with a not charged in a year lead acid battery and even starts a dle20 and 120ax without problem. I am sure, that battery isint even 12v. I move it all the way back to compression and let the prop spool up. Never stalls. My only problem is the weight...

The "obvious problem" with using LiPo is the fire risk

Ameyam

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/18/2013 11:59 PM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: offline 		Eventually you will come full circle and realize voltage is king in our applications but there is only one way to learn and that is to try it. I can,t imagine anyone still carting a full size automobile battery around and yes of course weight certainly is your problem.

last time I did that was long ago with my old Stand-em-up starter built by a friend sadly now gone, with an articulated arm spring switch. Ya know I need to fix that thing up and just use one of the lightweight 18 volters just to mess with the fellows heads a bit, but then agine it needed all that silly weight to let ya push the airplane into the starter.

The Switch plate in your inexpensive (relative) starter will be the first point of failure when you get up to around twenty and will be entirely dependant as already noted on how you use that starter and your personal habits in cranking.

The first time you do experiance a runaway starter try not to let it startle you and this easily is very distracting especially so if the runaway also resulted in a successful engine start. That can get dangerous very quickly.

This is no BS as I have experianced just this experimenting as well as several others. My recommendation remains the same for any starter rated 12 volts best keep it not over 18 volt unless. There are just to many times you will hold that switch on to long or dry crank an engine in cold weather.

In our usage voltage is King, that is to a point.

John


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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 1:53 AM   
jetmech05


 

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Status: offline 		Voltage is useless with out the amps...I have seen many times where a terminal lug is held on by a stand or 2 of wire..voltage is there by a meter but whatever doesn't work...go get a test light and it won't light you have low amps

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 2:49 AM   
acerc



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Status: online 		I use one of these starters with a 4cell life. It can handle up to a 6 cell but sofar it has turned up to a Zenoah GT 80 with no noticeable resistance.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 3:02 AM   
jefflangton


 

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Status: offline 		I use a 3s 2200 on mine and it starts my dle30 all day.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 3:20 AM   
JohnBuckner



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jetmech05

Voltage is useless with out the amps...I have seen many times where a terminal lug is held on by a stand or 2 of wire..voltage is there by a meter but whatever doesn't work...go get a test light and it won't light you have low amps



Absolutely agreed and of course all the cruddy connections, unsuitable wire runs, old rusty alligator clips and the list goes on being equal then they only way to improve the performance of his specific starter is to up the voltage. He said that he wants to reduce weight then improving performance with a voltage increase is an economical, and dramatic way to do just that. Although I doubt he is going to get any "not charged in a year" engine starts with any solution he may choose.

So yes I still beleve Voltage is King as a simple, practical and economical solution for most of our starter needs.

John

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 6:11 AM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		I'm wondering if Boeing was wishing that they didn't use LiPo batteries in the Dreamliner.

As John said, Voltage is King, because power is equal to the voltage squared, so 17 Volts gives twice the power of 12 Volts.

The next important factor is the internal resistance of the battery. Lower is better. This is why wet lead acid, and Nicads work so well, because you are not losing much of the open circuit voltage with a voltage drop of the battery output when sourcing high currents.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 8:47 AM   
drac1


 

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Status: offline 		I use 2 starters. One is a Magnum geared reduction starter on 2 X 3S 2200 Lipos in parallel. The other starter is a Sullivan Dynatron on 4 X 3S 2200 Lipos. 2 packs in parallel and the 2 parallel packs in series.
I've had no problems at all with these starters on Lipos.

The Magnum gets used for every day use including on my YS DZ175's. The only time the Magnum won't turn over the YS DZ175, is on the first start of the day when it is really cold and/or frosty. Then the Sullivan comes out.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 11:57 AM   
ameyam


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

John, the "not charged in a year" still starts everything upto the 120ax I have. Its not charged because I havent flown for a year due to health reasons. I concluded that the Hobbico starter is too heavy and ordered a smaller one from HK.

I am still out on the battery issue though and I dont want to order just the LiFe and spend an equal amount on shipping (I locally sources other items I wanted to order and the LiFe cant be shipped by post)

Ameyam

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 2:01 PM   
stoneenforcer


 

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Status: offline 		i use 4s lipo on the craftsman drill.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 2:16 PM   
choihjin


 

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Status: offline 		I have been using a 20C 3S-3300 Lipo instead of Pb battery for a geared starter and a charger at field more than four years. It could turn up to YS 170 and DLE 30. Recently I upgraded to a Flightmax 25C 3S 5000 used for an electric plane. It is lighter to carry, and easier and faster to charge than Pb Battery.

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 3:59 PM   
KW_Counter


 

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quote:

As John said, Voltage is King, because power is equal to the voltage squared, so 17 Volts gives twice the power of 12 Volts.


I have never heard that before.
Power, measured in watts, is volts times amps.
You can increase the volts all you want, if the amps aren't there
you're not starting your engine.

I use a 4S1P 2200 LiPo in my Sullivan starter.
Works very well on my 40s, 60s and 120 4stroke.
I've never tried it on anything bigger.

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/19/2013 5:02 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		It's basic electrical theory.

Ohm's Law V = I x R or I = V/R

Power P = I x V

After a small bit of algebraic manipulation

Power P = (V^2)/R

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/20/2013 1:10 AM   
2walla


 

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Status: offline 		Just bite the bllet and buy yourself a makita lxt drill and get the adapter from afineredge for your starter. http://www.afineredgemfg.com/index_files/Page528.htm
I threw out all of the ghetto battery setups i had built over the years to run my dynatron after trying a buddies setup..

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/20/2013 2:39 PM   
KW_Counter


 

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Status: offline 		High Plains,

I concede your formula and statement. However, my comment still stands,
"If you don't have the current available then the starter isn't going to turn."

Good Luck,
KW_Counter

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RE: LiFe batteries on a starter? - 1/20/2013 3:20 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		Well KW, you are making progress.

However if you read all of my post you would have seen this part

quote:

The next important factor is the internal resistance of the battery. Lower is better. This is why wet lead acid, and Nicads work so well, because you are not losing much of the open circuit voltage with a voltage drop of the battery output when sourcing high currents.


Every electrical energy source (a battery for instance) is modeled by an ideal voltage source and an internal impedance. For simplicity, this impedence is usually a resistance value. If that value is very low, the battery can source a very large current, only limited by the external load.

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