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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 1:08 AM   
MJD



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ORIGINAL: donalddrew
2 or so month's I've been flying this plane a couple of time/week over the 2 months I've had it. (so it doesn't sit around)  I do run the engine dry at the end of each day.  Drain the fuel and run the engine til it quits.  Then with the glow plug driver attached turn it over with an electric started several more times.  Then put (as per instructions on afterrun oil) several drops ARO into carb and through glow plug hole. Then turn over engine again with electric starter.   It seems to me that perhaps ''EVERYbody'' doesn't know about the use of afterrun treatment.. Several of the posters state they never run after run oil.  And if you speak with the folks at Morgan Fuels, they say you don't need to use ARO with their fuels.   So what I surmise from the posts so far:  Possible a bad bearing/cheper bearing material from the start,  remove back cover to check for rust before sending to Hobby Services, ARO certainly won't hurt, run engine dry at end of day. 


You're far more diligent than I am, and probably many others - and you ended up with bad bearings. Defect.. defect.. defect..

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 3:44 AM   
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That is serious smoke.



That is what I think. The OP is very meticulous about his planes and equipment. The engine and airplane it is in are very new.



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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 10:14 AM   
Airplanes400



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ORIGINAL: donalddrew

Recently had an OS 65AX ABL seize during flight of my Dirty Birdy.  Engine had maybe 25 flights on it.  Sent it in for warranty work to Hobby Services.  Their findings: rust from rear bearing went through engine destroying front and rear bearing, cyllinder line and piston.  I run Wildcat fuel 10% nitro 18 % oil (synthetic/castor mix).  At the end of each day I run the engine dry, and use after run oil (Hobbico or Zap).  As well, the longest the engine has sat between flights is about a week.  I live in San Diego away from the coast (dry climate) When I told the rep from Hobby Services this he said I need to use at least a teaspoon of after run oil after each session!    Sounds crazy to me.  Any ideas out there?  Are these guys just blowing smoke up my exhaust pipe ?  Any similar issues with rust in OS engines?  Could it have just been a faulty bearing?  Am I doing somthing wrong???  Now I'm recently back into the hobby after a 30 + year hiatus.  Back then I never used  after run oil and never had an engine have any rust issues.  Am worried that if this happens again, they won't cover the repair.

The correct procedure is to either buy a new engine every week, or add a gallon of after-run oil to your engine every day and change the bearings every month. If you do the second procedure, you would still need to replace the engine every six months.

Now, seriously ...
The guy who told you about adding adding a teaspoon of after-run oil after every session is severely mis-informed. The only thing you could do wrong is to take his advise. That guy should not be working on engines. Take about blowing smoke!!!

I use fuel that contains synthetic oil (Cool Power 10%) and never had a problem. I shut the engine down, drain the fuel from the tank, pack up, and go home. I never ran the engine dry. Whatever fuel is in the engine, remains in the engine until the next time I fly. Which is between a week and a month, sometimes more. I aslo keep my planes inside the house, which is always air-conditioned. Never had a problem. The engine runs perfectly, and the bearings last several years. No signs of rust, or loss of power.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 1:39 PM   
controlliner



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Status: offline 		In the end, most two stroke glow engines purge almost completely on shut down as long as the throttle is wide open. If there is any minute amount of methanol left, the hot engine will make that go away. Morgan fuels uses a very good rust inhibitor in their fuel mixes. I've trusted them for many years without ARO.
Letting an engine idle before shutdown will almost certainly lead to some amount of rust. It should be done WOT.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 2:12 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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ORIGINAL: controlliner

In the end, most two stroke glow engines purge almost completely on shut down as long as the throttle is wide open. If there is any minute amount of methanol left, the hot engine will make that go away. Morgan fuels uses a very good rust inhibitor in their fuel mixes. I've trusted them for many years without ARO.
Letting an engine idle before shutdown will almost certainly lead to some amount of rust. It should be done WOT.

The last time I ran an engine at high throttle when it ran out of fuel toasted the glow plug. The element looked like crumpled tin foil. Since then, I run the engine at a fast idle until it quits and hit it with the starter a few times until it quits firing. I then leave the piston at BDC so the crankcase can breathe and this seems to work well. I use low nitro and lots of castor and only had a minor rust issue when I went to a 50/50 castor/syn oil blend. Although up until this point, my engines have been used on airboats in wet environment.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 2:28 PM   
downunder



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ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r
The last time I ran an engine at high throttle when it ran out of fuel toasted the glow plug.

Strange because that's the way all CL engines stop at the end of every flight.



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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 2:48 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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ORIGINAL: downunder

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r
The last time I ran an engine at high throttle when it ran out of fuel toasted the glow plug.

Strange because that's the way all CL engines stop at the end of every flight.



I know, I found it odd myself. The plug didn't have but 3 or 4 tanks on it to boot.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 4:30 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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I had more blown glow plugs when I was flying CL than with RC.  On some of my setups the engine leaned out more than it should during the run, so if you did not set it rich enough it would lean out and possibly blow a plug.  With RC I would idle down and land.



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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 4:58 PM   
airraptor


 

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ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

I had more blown glow plugs when I was flying CL than with RC.  On some of my setups the engine leaned out more than it should during the run, so if you did not set it rich enough it would lean out and possibly blow a plug.  With RC I would idle down and land.



This thread is about bad bearings not blown plugs...............

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 6:54 PM   
fly24-7



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Status: offline 		Seems like there's vigerous agreement. The hobby services guy is spewing BS. Time to end this thread and start another where everyone can attack each other. We've reached the cranky part of winter...

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 7:02 PM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		My 2 cents...I think the bearings that are being used in the "problem" engines are of an inferior quality material...

I flew a LOT back in the 70's and 80's and didn't even think about rusty bearings...never saw any...maybe part of it was the (better? ) material of the bearings, maybe part of it the fuel(s ) used...(lots of Castor )

Took a decade off, and when I got back into the hobby in the 90's, I started having problems with rusty bearings...??? Didn't know why...because I was doing the same things that I'd always done before.



Speaking of fuel(s )...
A while back there was talk of cheaper Nitro being used in our fuels that might have been slightly acidic, that could have been a contributing factor to rusty engine internals? I bought some Litmus paper from Tower (Perfect brand, just like in my old Chemistry set ) to see if my fuel might be of a lower PH than it's supposed to be. Thankfully the stuff I got, in quantity from S&W is neutral...

I don't want to get into the whole "oil debate" thing, but don't certain synthetic oils break down into components that can contribute to rusty engine internals?

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 9:15 PM   
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Status: offline 		My bearing and piston sleeve wear issues went away when I started to use Morgan Omega fuel with castor oil
I do run out the engine after every day I fly
Only use after run to store engines or you have to run the stuff out of the engine the next day out at the field



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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 1/31/2013 10:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		I have a couple questions about Pe's suggestion. What is "cleaning naptha"? Where would I get it and what would it be called?

Will a glow engine actually run on a 50:50 mix of cleaning naptha and ARO? I suppose you leave the glow plug battery connected.

This sounds like a good way to maintain the OS alpha four strokes that have no breather nipple. I know some people drill a hole and install one, but I'm not going to do that. Running the engine at the end of the day with Pe's mixture is something I would be willing to do.

Thanks,

Jim

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 12:27 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		It's been a while, (haven't been in that section of the store lately) but I recall seeing Naptha in the Paint dept. of Ace Hardware...and Lowes...

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 1:17 AM   
Fs one


 

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Status: offline 		i have been running cool power synthetic fuel for 11yrs have never had a problem with bearings in any of my O.Sengines from .46 up to 160FXs.i use marvel mystery oil after every engine run never had a rust problem! where the engine has not run properly.All engines will have a slight bit of rust on the inside take off backplate and check it.Castor in fuel will make no difference.Most problems are pilot error running engines to lean.Learn how to break in an engine properly and don't run the engine lean.Also make sure you have proper cooling of air going over the engine as well.When you use after run load the engine up make sure there is enough in the engine.


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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 1:53 AM   
airraptor


 

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ORIGINAL: buzzard bait

I have a couple questions about Pe's suggestion. What is ''cleaning naptha''? Where would I get it and what would it be called?

Will a glow engine actually run on a 50:50 mix of cleaning naptha and ARO? I suppose you leave the glow plug battery connected.

This sounds like a good way to maintain the OS alpha four strokes that have no breather nipple. I know some people drill a hole and install one, but I'm not going to do that. Running the engine at the end of the day with Pe's mixture is something I would be willing to do.

Thanks,

Jim

you are willing to fill your tank up with a different fuel and then run the engine out every day instead of taking a few minutes to install a nipple and not have to mess with it lol.

Fs one"i have been running cool power synthetic fuel for 11yrs have never had a problem with bearings in any of my O.Sengines from .46 up to 160FXs.i use marvel mystery oil after every engine run never had a rust problem! where the engine has not run properly.All engines will have a slight bit of rust on the inside take off backplate and check it.Castor in fuel will make no difference.Most problems are pilot error running engines to lean.Learn how to break in an engine properly and don't run the engine lean.Also make sure you have proper cooling of air going over the engine as well.When you use after run load the engine up make sure there is enough in the engine. "

That is such a pain in the A$$. why do we have to go to such lengths to make sure our engines last? The BEARING MFG's are using substandard metals and we have to pay for it. how much is it a pain in the butt to fill the engine up with oil, keep the oil in the engine while transporting the plane home and then get to the field only to have to remove all the oil and then take for ever to start the engine.

Bottom line is OS and others still want to make a profit, the suppliers of the parts and metal to OS want to make a profit also. Someone is cutting corners. Now if it isnt the engine MFG's its the Fuel MFG's that are cutting corners to make a profit. If you notice fuel hasnt really gone up that much in the last 10-15 years. A good deal on 15% fuel 15 years ago was 10 dollars most of the time it was 12-13 dollars a gallon. it now only 15-17 a gallon at the LHS

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 2:26 AM   
earlwb


 

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ORIGINAL: buzzard bait

I have a couple questions about Pe's suggestion. What is "cleaning naptha"? Where would I get it and what would it be called?

Will a glow engine actually run on a 50:50 mix of cleaning naptha and ARO? I suppose you leave the glow plug battery connected.

This sounds like a good way to maintain the OS alpha four strokes that have no breather nipple. I know some people drill a hole and install one, but I'm not going to do that. Running the engine at the end of the day with Pe's mixture is something I would be willing to do.

Thanks,

Jim


A easy source for Naptha is Coleman Camp Fuel for Lanterns or camping stoves. it is actually naptha based. Some folks use it in place of gasoline in their gasoline engines. it is a lower octane rated fuel though, but usually doesn't pose a problem in the engines.

I haven't tried running a engine off the stuff, but yeah if you keep the glow plug heated up it should work.  There have been people getting a glow engine to fire up and run off of WD-40 or some other penetrating oil when they flip the propeller after oiling the engine up. I suspect the flammable gasses in the spray can probably cause the effect. But it is wise to be careful flipping the prop fast after oiling a engine like that.

It could be bad for the silicon fuel tubing so keep the stuff away from the fuel lines, etc.

I forgot to mention that they sell Naptha cleaning solvent at many hardware stores too. Even the big box home improvement stores have it.




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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 3:39 AM   
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Status: offline 		OK, thanks earlwb and proptop for answering my questions.

Jim

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 12:52 PM   
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Status: offline 		Naptha is used for paint thinner and found in most paint stores and hardware stores.  Not sure if it is cheaper than Coleman's, but it is a lot smellier.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 12:56 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Castor in fuel will make no difference.


Actually castor protects the engine better.  It is thicker and does not evaporate in the combustion chamber, most synthetics do.  Also most synthetics will not thicken with age and will run off the surfaces in time leaving them bare to the elements.  Castor will congeal and leave a thick coat to protect the metal.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 1:35 PM   
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Status: online 		Fizz, yes, I order it in the Red Aerosol 16 oz can, a can will last a year or more. If an engine already has congealed castor in it the CX will dissolve it.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 1:48 PM   
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Status: online 		Hugh, you probably remember the story about the MDS 1.48 I bought from a guy in Az. a few years ago. One of the selling brags was that the engine had never seen castor. When I received it the inside was as dry as a bone. The only visible lube was in the big rod bearing, all else was dry. The rear bearing was rusted and the ring was rusted to the cylinder.
Another story was a learning experience for me. I bought two new Irvines in 1990, a .40 and a .46, I broke them in on Fox 5% fuel with 20% castor. I flew the .46 a few times on a Sport 500 helicopter. I didn't like flying a helicopter so I sold it. I cleaned up the .46 and put it back in its box and put the plastic plug that came with it in the exhaust port and the red plastic cap on the carb. Big mistake, a couple of years later I decided to use both engines. Both rear bearings were flaky with rust, the cranks had some kind of black coating on them and did not rust. Lesson, at least to me, never seal up a stored engine.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 3:03 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Hugh, you probably remember the story about the MDS 1.48 I bought from a guy in Az. a few years ago. One of the selling brags was that the engine had never seen castor. When I received it the inside was as dry as a bone. The only visible lube was in the big rod bearing, all else was dry. The rear bearing was rusted and the ring was rusted to the cylinder.
Another story was a learning experience for me. I bought two new Irvines in 1990, a .40 and a .46, I broke them in on Fox 5% fuel with 20% castor. I flew the .46 a few times on a Sport 500 helicopter. I didn't like flying a helicopter so I sold it. I cleaned up the .46 and put it back in its box and put the plastic plug that came with it in the exhaust port and the red plastic cap on the carb. Big mistake, a couple of years later I decided to use both engines. Both rear bearings were flaky with rust, the cranks had some kind of black coating on them and did not rust. Lesson, at least to me, never seal up a stored engine.



Sealing with the cap's can help.  But it can also hurt if either there is still some small amount of methanol left, or you caped them on a humid day, then stored them in a cool space causing the humidity to condense out.   I generally make sure all fuel has evaporated and then lubricate with 3 in 1 oil, or gun oil, then store in a zip lock bag with some thin oil or mineral spirits in the bag, the thin oil will vaporize and coat any uncoated metal.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 3:33 PM   
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ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot


quote:

ORIGINAL: camsbad

Sport_Pilot ... You should educate yourself before making a statement like the following:

''We are talking about a two stroke, there are no combustion products in contact with the crankshaft of a two stroke.''

Please go take a basic mechanics course at your local community college or the local high school before making any more statements about any engine or how it operates.

Why do you think that there is oil in the fuel we use in the glow engine? It's there to lubricate the entire engine, including the crankshaft, and bearings, and cylinder and piston(s).



You are the one who needs a mechanics course, or maybe english course, not sure which.  The burned nitro and burned methanol (combustion products) go out the exhaust, thus the nitric acid never touch's the internals of a two stroke.


I've just read more blow by than I see in the engines.

By products of combustion do indeed inflitrate the entire engine internals, whether two stroke or four stroke. No way around it. No piston/cylinder combination is perfecctly sealed.

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RE: OS 65AX ABL - 2/1/2013 5:26 PM   
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No piston/cylinder combination is perfecctly sealed.


No, but the blow by is 90% unburned fuel.   The amount of burned fuel that gets into the combustion chamber is neglible and not a factor.


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