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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/7/2013 7:57 PM   
OhD


 

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Status: offline 		My objectives - not in any particular order – when it comes to flying Pattern

1) Have fun
2) Make the airplane fly better
3) Do so at a reasonable cost
4) Do so at a reasonable expenditure of time
5) Enjoy the camaraderie of flying with folks with similar objectives
6) Help more folks participate in pattern
7) Compete to find out how I'm doing on 2) above

To accomplish these objectives one must have a total program plan. I'm having fun when the plane is flying well or if I have done something to make it fly better. I recently started flying a Contra Drive and it is definitely making the airplane easier to fly well. However I'm not sure it is in keeping with 3 above. Sometimes 3 and especially 4 get in the way of 1 and 2. I'm sure they also affect 6. So much so that I believe the current rules are not compatible with the objectives. We already have Contra Drives in Sportsman but few will follow.

I'm not suggesting changing the rules, but how about a new class with minimal rules. Limiting the size to something like 1.75x1.75 meters would do wonders in cutting costs. There are many ARFs available and I believe we'd see folks designing and building their own designs out of balsa as we did in the old days. Allow anything that makes them fly better and I predict they would soon fly as well as our 2 meter planes and be just as much fun to fly. And meet all of the objectives above.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/7/2013 9:12 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		I think an 'Open Class' at local pattern contests sounds like a cool idea. Maybe it's been beaten to death in these forums, I don't know... I do know there has been a lot of talk lately (and probably for a long time) about declining participation, or ways to rejuvinate pattern flying. I don't think I'd vote for allowing telemetry as a rule in an Open class, but no weight requirement, a different (or none at all) size requirement... It would be fun to see a class full of who-knows-what airplanes and pilots. And maybe allow people to fly Open class as well as their regular class if they fly a different plane.

To clarify a point I was trying to make earlier - I don't see much of a point in not allowing a new guy to fly because of AS3X. Typically rules are bent a little more in Sportsman, and I'm fine with that. I don't like the idea of the same pilot flying several contests in a season with the telemetry though, should be a "we'll let you this time" kind of thing.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/7/2013 10:26 PM   
rcpattern



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Status: offline 		AS3x and telemetry are completely different Joe. AS3X actually fixes errors during flight without the pilot doing anything. It is completely different than any programmable mix or anything else. It is actually flying the plane for the pilot.

I do have a problen with it in a contest. Tara and two other pilots at my field are going to fly pattern this year. If the winds are howling and they have yo work in the conditions but another pilots plane is doing the corrections for them then it is no where near fair to those doing it right. There are people at my club thatccannot fly a plane without AS3x but can do basic aerobatics.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/7/2013 11:27 PM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		AS3X does not "fix" errors. All it does is add stability to the airplane. It will help keep the model in the attitude the pilot puts it in. It won't level the wings, it won't hold it on a track, it won't make loops round. It won't fly "pre-programmed" maneuvers. It resists movement from turbulence. It just makes the model fly better. Like digital servos vs analog. Like PCM 2048 vs 1024 vs 512. Like radios with tons of mixing programs vs those without. Like a modern model such as a Nuance vs a Typhoon.

AS3X does not "fly" the model for the pilot. It will not execute anything that the pilot does not tell it to do. It just makes the model fly better, but only if properly installed and set-up. It will end up just being another tool to use.

I think many forming opinions on this technology have not tried it yet.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 12:28 AM   
LD24


 

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Status: offline 		But it will allow the model to fly a perfectly wind correct straight line with hands off? or not...

My opinion will not be swayed on this...

It will disinfranchise a pilot in the district and could cost placement points of a Sportsman District Championship ... Not good for the sport, not good for competition...

This isn't about the size or weight of a plane. It enhances the pilots control that otherwise would not present well to judges without it...

LD

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 1:17 AM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		No, it will not. If disturbed it will not return the wings to level flight. It only resists being disturbed more then without. It just makes the model a bit better then it would be without.

Sportsman is supposed to be a "run what you brung" event. It's meant to be a "get your feet wet" experience to see if you might like flying pattern. That's why it is not run at the Nats. I honestly believe a class that is not run at the Nats should not really even have a District Championships. But that's another topic.

Somehow over the years Sportsman has become much more difficult then it should be. There is no way you can take most sport fliers and get them up to speed enough on flying the entire Sportsman pattern in a weekend. It takes most people a concerted effort to become good enough to try entering a contest. I know because I have about 6 to 8 people in my area that I am helping to fly Sportsman. They have to work really hard to do it.

AS3X will not make instant winners out of everyone who uses it to try Sportsman pattern. But it might make more people interested in giving it a try if it makes it a bit easier. Maybe smaller, lower cost models with AS3X that fly well will inspire some to give competition a try. We've already seen that with the smaller Osiris, Sequence, Vanquish models out there. If AS3X models get more to try our style of "precision" flying rather then just going out and hovering, then I think it will be better for the sport.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 1:30 AM   
LD24


 

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Status: offline 		We all have an opinion. If I were the CD, they could fly, but not compete for placement. I wouldn't turn anyone away... I wouldn't be one to waive that rule in a sanctioned contest...

Just Sayin...

Larry

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 1:36 AM   
OhD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

No, it will not. If disturbed it will not return the wings to level flight. It only resists being disturbed more then without. It just makes the model a bit better then it would be without. ......


AS3X will not make instant winners out of everyone who uses it to try Sportsman pattern. But it might make more people interested in giving it a try if it makes it a bit easier. Maybe smaller, lower cost models with AS3X that fly well will inspire some to give competition a try. We've already seen that with the smaller Osiris, Sequence, Vanquish models out there. If AS3X models get more to try our style of ''precision'' flying rather then just going out and hovering, then I think it will be better for the sport.


I totally agree. I believe that anything that helps the pilot fly the airplane better will make him enjoy Pattern flying more and make him more apt to try and then stick with it. And it would help if they didn't need to compete with $4000 2M ships.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 5:39 AM   
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Status: online 		I agree with what both Tony and Jim say 100%!!  I have flown both with and without the AS3X and I will tell you right now it's much more of an advantage to have a 2-Meter plane than having a smaller plane with AS3X for sure!  I can't say that I have flown a Splendor yet, but I am pretty sure I'd rather fly my 2-meter plane than a foam one with AS3X.  And dialing in that AS3X is an entirely new skill set.  It won't correct wings level, won't improve geometry, and definitely won't "fly-itself".  I think for our sport to grow, guys need to just lighten up a bit.  Have fun and get as many new guys involved as we can and I believe the Splendor is a great, inexpensive way to get more people into pattern.  I honestly welcome it.  And for what it's worth there are definite sacrifices with the current AS3X receiver, the biggest is the fact a Y harness is required for the ailerons.  I am hoping this sport starts getting the numbers it used to.  Having to compete against 1 or 2 of the same guys at each contest will get old quick!!
 


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 3:43 PM   
klhoard



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quote:

ORIGINAL: JSchoolcraft
. .<snip>. .   I am hoping this sport starts getting the numbers it used to.  Having to compete against 1 or 2 of the same guys at each contest will get old quick!!
 

.
Have you seen the number of participants at the helicopter Nats?  They're lucky to get 10 total across ALL of the classes.  The next week IRCHA (helo fun-fly) is held at Site 4 and gets over 1000 registered pilots.
.
I don't believe we're ever going to see any significant increase in numbers for pattern participation over what we have right now.  The reason is that it takes a very rare personality type to make the investment in both time and equipment seeking the "payback" that we do.  That percentage of "personality types" is pretty much the same across all hobbies, not just fixed wing R/C.
.
So, to the original poster. . . allowing stabilized receivers is a two-edged sword.  For a new participant that is determined to fly pattern and is "like us", he will just ignore the guy down the flight line (as weak and in desperate need of that crutch) , get a 2 meter plane and move up.  However, some guys - justified in my eyes - will want an "asterisk" placed next to the flights where a stabilizing receiver was used.  If you're going to ignore that rule, then why not ignore the rule requiring nobody but the competitor touch the transmitter and hand it off to your caller  who flies Masters right after takeoff?  Just give me an "asterisk" and the trophy.
.
 


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 5:34 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: offline 		OTOH, if this is just the beginning of an AS3X era, perhaps we will see a whole new kind of contest in the future.  This need not affect pattern as we know and love it, but future newcomers to competition flying may just bypass the current precision aerobatic offerings to try their hand at something a little closer to their level of skill and commitment? An alternative to 3D or fun fly, or a new kind of aerobatic contest where its all about this new gear? A savvy marketing organization might just seek a celebrity pilot to promote a new kind of product, for a new kind of competition, that is a little more accessible and inviting than, say, IMAC (or us)?  Just some junk food for thought during a dreary day lunch break here in soggy NJ LOL.  Thoughts?

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 5:45 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: offline 		Say, may I ask what you decided to do for your contest (ok by me if you would rather not say).  It has been an interesting and robust conversation to date!

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatternFlyer

Ok, I need to send the paper works to AMA for Pittsburg, KS contest in June.

Should I allow the AS3X integrated receiver in Sportsman class?

E-Flite announced Splendor BNF Basic
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdId=EFL10250

Very good size for Sportman without too much $$.

For some that have not flown much of Pattern and want to try, should I allow it?

I want to have more people flying Pattern. I haven't had a chance to try the new AS3X receiver for a larger plane yet.

If someone come to the contest with one of stock Splendor and want to fly Sportman class, what would you do?
We allow sportman to fly anyplane under 20 something pounds just to encourage more to participate.
However, our rule prevents any stabilization. .
The receiver has sensitivity/gain adjustability, but can not be completely turn off the AS3X gyro.

I personally don't like the idea of plane with stabilization, but want to see more Sportman at the local contest.

What do you guys think?

Ihncheol



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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 7:28 PM   
OhD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danamania

OTOH, if this is just the beginning of an AS3X era, perhaps we will see a whole new kind of contest in the future.  This need not affect pattern as we know and love it, but future newcomers to competition flying may just bypass the current precision aerobatic offerings to try their hand at something a little closer to their level of skill and commitment? An alternative to 3D or fun fly, or a new kind of aerobatic contest where its all about this new gear? A savvy marketing organization might just seek a celebrity pilot to promote a new kind of product, for a new kind of competition, that is a little more accessible and inviting than, say, IMAC (or us)?  Just some junk food for thought during a dreary day lunch break here in soggy NJ LOL.  Thoughts?


I don't know if anyone will organize a new event but I wouldn't be surprised if they did and I'd bet they would grow faster than pattern as we know it.

Kieth, I would love to know the ratio of flybar to flybar-less helicopters at IRCHA. I believe that will tell us something.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 8:36 PM   
rm



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Status: online 		I must be missing something here.  How is this anything new and gonna take over by storm?  Gyros have been around for years for planes, helis, anything.  Doesn't matter how you package it, gyros are gyros.


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 8:42 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: offline 		Parts is parts, eh?  Could be just another 3D capable ride to fly & break.  Or it could be the beginning of something altogether new, who knows right? 

Here is the ad copy for the product (contest not included):

Overview

The E-flite® Carbon-Z™ Splendor™ BNF Basic monoplane represents the pinnacle of performance and aerobatic versatility. F3A World Aerobatic Champion Quique Somenzini envisioned the Carbon-Z Splendor aircraft to deliver everything the modern world of precision flying has to offer, with not just the ability to perform elegant F3A sequence aerobatics, but extreme 3D stunts as well. In conjunction with the benefits of rigid Carbon-Z construction in the wings and fuselage, ground-breaking AS3X® technology built into the included Spektrum™ AR635 receiver makes it possible for you to experience unparalleled stability and a flight envelope wider than ever before possible.




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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 8:58 PM   
rm



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Status: online 		So what's new?   They've packaged a rx with 3 gyros.  Only thing new is you don't have to do it yourself.


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 9:02 PM   
PatternFlyer



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Status: offline 		I've decided not to allow AS3X receiver for the contest.
If anyone shows up, I will provide a receiver to use during the contest. It will make it a lot easier.

I will write more later. gotta go.


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 9:10 PM   
OhD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rm

I must be missing something here.  How is this anything new and gonna take over by storm?  Gyros have been around for years for planes, helis, anything.  Doesn't matter how you package it, gyros are gyros.



Gyros have come a long way in helicopters because their rules allowed them. Not too many guys could fly helicopters until they had yaw gyros. They started out as rate dampers and proceeded to heading hold devices. Now the flybarless helicopters have 3 axis stability systems that allow them to do unbelievable maneuvers. I don't know much about the AS3X receiver but I doubt that it is as good as it could be and probably would be if it were pattern legal and had feedback from pattern pilots.

I AM missing something, why wouldn't everyone want something that would make their airplane fly better? If you want to make flying more difficult I can think of a lot more rules to add.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 9:52 PM   
rm



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Status: online 		Well, unless FAI decides to back it, this whole discussion is worthless.


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/8/2013 9:53 PM   
TonyF


 

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 12:12 AM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Guy and I each have a AS3X equipped UMX SBach-

having flown lots of other tiny "aerobatic" models - this one is an eyeopener
Anyone who wants to see how the system MAY perform -in bigger stuff - buy n fly one of these. Our thought was to suggest a mini contest using these - just to have fun and show others what the stabilization thingis all about.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 1:07 AM   
OhD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmh

Guy and I each have a AS3X equipped UMX SBach-

having flown lots of other tiny ''aerobatic'' models - this one is an eyeopener
Anyone who wants to see how the system MAY perform -in bigger stuff - buy n fly one of these. Our thought was to suggest a mini contest using these - just to have fun and show others what the stabilization thingis all about.


Hey Dick,

I think it ought to be a separate class at all contests. I bet a lot of guys who won't compete now would go for it. Keep the airplanes smaller and the power systems inexpensive. Part of the problem with newcomers is they are afraid to fly their $4000 airplanes.

Jim O


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 3:48 AM   
countilaw



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Status: offline 		As a Contest Director,    I  will not allow   it even in  prenovice class.          The  object of pattern is to become a better pilot and compete against other pilots.      If a person can't fly his plane good enough to compete,  he should practice more  or wait until the next year as their skills improve.      I feel that if a pilot has to rely on   this system to fly his plane and not crash,  then he may not be safe. 

Seems like we are spoon feeding  pilots  these days.   We prebuild their planes (ARFs)   and then give them an  electronic co-pilot.    The next thing you know,  we'll be flying their plane for them.      

That's my opinion. 

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 6:44 AM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		Except in Classic we are supposed to be following the 1980-81 AMA rules. Here's an excerpt,

4.4. Controls. There shall be no radio equipment or aircraft control function limitations in any Pattern class except Pre-Novice. Radio equipment is only limited by FCC regulations.
4.4.1. In the Pre-Novice class, aircraft must be of the fixed gear type, or, if the aircraft is equipped with retractable landing gear, the aircraft must be flown with the gear down. No tuned pipe (i.e., muffler device which increases engine rpm) may be used.

So back then it was all about improving the systems. If you doubt that gyros were used back then, I know for a fact that they were in use, and by some surprising top names. And no, I never used them in pattern. Did play with them for the TOC though.

And I disagree that the object of pattern is only to become a better pilot. I think it's not only improving your flying, but also learning to get the most out of the equipment. How to build or assemble, how to set-up, how to trim and how to maintain are pretty big skills to learn along with how to fly.

The fact of the matter is that people simply do not have the amount of spare time that they did 20-30 years ago. Work hours have greatly increased and leisure time is greatly reduced. AS3X is one way to get a good flying model with a reduced amount of time to get it flying good.

It really remains to be seen just what the real impact these systems will have to the hobby. But I predict that they will become imbedded in a relatively short amount of time.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 1:08 PM   
LShaver1


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

.
I think I'd make him set up at the far end of the field, down by the treeline and make him carry his plane back to his spot and cover it with a towel between flights.   Oh yeah, and no caller.  You wanna cheat, then do it yourself and not sully the reputation of some innocent pattern flyer who thinks he's just ''helping a Sportsman'' but then will be known forever as the ''Cheater's Caller''.
.
Yeah, that's what I'D do . . .
.
And everyone tell him that we're going to Captain D's for Saturday night dinner . . . then head out to Outback . . .
.
Yeah, yeah . . .
.


But before heading out to Outback....wait till he goes to the porta potty, drive a gutter spike through the lock and kick that sucker over; with all that blue stuff and crap all over him he'll be marked for the next days flying wearing this badge of shame and as far as his poor caller that got caught up in his lying cheating lifestyle....well...I'm not sure they make water hot enough

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