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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 3:21 PM

oneaew@msn.com

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JUST FOR FUN>>> HE WHO HAS THE BEST WINS JUST THOUGHT I WOULD SAY SOMETHING NO HARM MENT

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 4:00 PM

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ORIGINAL: OhD
... . .
Kieth, I would love to know the ratio of flybar to flybar-less helicopters at IRCHA. I believe that will tell us something.

Jim O

.
Flybarless is definitely taking over, even in F3C. I don't think there are any major manufacturers still producing flybars anymore. It is much cheaper to produce 1 circuit board than 20+ machined parts. There is a fairly steep learning curve to tuning a flybarless system - PID loops, gains, and getting a good mechanical setup to start. But the parts count has been severely reduced from the swashplate up.
.
However, the difference with pattern is that flybarless is only changing the pitch and roll stabilization from mechanical to electronic. The flybar was always a two-axis gyro, it just did its thing mechanically.
.
Guys can fly the same "Hard Smack" 3D maneuvers with or without a flybarred helicopter. The main difference is that the flybarless allows about 20% (don't quote me on that number) more power to go to the rotor head instead of being eaten up by the flybar paddles and associated linkages.
.
As far as using these systems in pattern, the biggest impediment I can see is that most of the systems only allow you to change the gain on one channel (tail rotor) from the Tx. The Futaba system, CGY-750, allows you to change all three gains 0-100%, and also go from heading hold to "rate" mode from the Tx as long as you're using a 10 channel or higher Tx. So it would be a fairly simple exercise to set up several different gyro gains associated with different flight conditions - i.e. 0% gain for snaps, then back to 100% for the recovery.
.
The next step in flybarless systems is "bailout", "hard deck", and "hard wall" capabilities. These are already being fielded by several manufacturers. Basically you tell the system where "home" is - 30 foot hover over center of runway with tail towards you, set up a "hard deck" altitude, tell it how far away from "home" to not go, and also have a "bailout" switch on the Tx. Now you can do ANYTHING you want within a virtual box and the flybarless system will take over and return to "home" if you violate the "box".
.
After that will come pre-programmed maneuvers where you either download maneuvers from your favorite pro pilot, or copy a file from your simulator session and then upload it to your flybarless system and go out and "impress" your buddies. Can't fly an inverted Hurricane in real life 'cause you're too scared? Upload a file of Nick Maxwell from IRCHA and flip a switch on your Tx.
.
I agree with several of the posters above that as long as everyone has access to the same technology, then the playing field is "levelled". However, when has that ever been true? Look at the Contra system. Soon the fixed wing systems will have the bailout, hard deck, and pre-programmed maneuvers out of the box. New flyers will show up to a Sportsman contest saying "Hey, I programmed the sequence into my receiver, can I still fly?". Soon you will be a dinosaur if you don't use these systems and we'll be joining the CPA and SPA ranks with our 2 meter old school planes ("Remember pattern as it was in 2010? Join the CPA!!!").
.
For me, one of the biggest part of learning to fly helicopters is the very real chance of taking home a twisted pile of scrap every flight, especially when learning new maneuvers with your buddies yelling "Lower!!". You only get that thrill if every once in a while you DO have to make the Walk Of Shame and dig your helo out of a smoking hole. For me at least, if there is no real chance of failure, then there is no real reward when I finally do it right. I also understand that the generation following ours doesn't have that same sense. So I guess that the pattern community has to find where to draw the line in the sand and decide where the focus should be: on the pilot or the equipment.
.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 4:37 PM

rmh

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IF- you have not flown a model with the AS3X stabilization- do it - even if it is the little Gee Bee or the SBach or Visionaire
a flier who has not learned to select the right line or proper radius -etc., will still screw up. But the stability will let you get a nice stable line which adds to your mental image of what the lines should look like and it is really a confidence builder.
Flying one of these setups as a practice plane is not going to reduce your skills -
I Only have one full size pattern model - Guy has one which works extremely well and two more on on the bench-
We both think these AS3X models really are part of the future -
How they will eventually fit into the rules - is an unknown -but I strongly suspect some sort of "'smoothing" system will become accepted .

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 6:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

Edit....
For me, one of the biggest part of learning to fly helicopters is the very real chance of taking home a twisted pile of scrap every flight, especially when learning new maneuvers with your buddies yelling "Lower!!". You only get that thrill if every once in a while you DO have to make the Walk Of Shame and dig your helo out of a smoking hole. For me at least, if there is no real chance of failure, then there is no real reward when I finally do it right. I also understand that the generation following ours doesn't have that same sense. So I guess that the pattern community has to find where to draw the line in the sand and decide where the focus should be: on the pilot or the equipment.
.

Pattern already has decided and that rule has been around for many years. Most long timers in the sport don't mind abiding by it. It is part of what makes Pattern fun, the focus on the pilot, less on the plane and less on the control loop (supposed to be a passive system)

"Line in the sand" is also true...it implies change is possible....An active control loop takes "control burden" off the pilot. Not sure whether the new system (event actually) is indeed "Pattern". Personally I don't think so.

Suggestion to the proponents...create your own "Pattern type event" and call it something else. IF your event draws better than "Pattern Classic", congrats and the rest of us may have a decision to make. And IF Pattern Classic goes away in time, then it was time for it to go; so be it! There's nothing Magic about Pattern to remain unscathed over many decades. Other events have died before.....

"Walk of Shame" is actually the "Walk of Education", No?

< Message edited by MTK -- 2/10/2013 4:36 AM >

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/9/2013 8:03 PM

OhD

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Thanks for the rundown Keith. The switch to flybarless is not surprising.

In fixed wing airplanes too, we have always had built in stability, sometimes at great cost of time and dollars and there is no question that if someone spends the time and effort and money he can fly the patterns without the help of an electronic stabilization system. But if we could achieve better stability electronically than mechanically it seems like a good trade off. If we could get the same effects as the $1000 Contra Drive with a $75 electronic black box I believe it would make most pilots happy. As far as capabilities like "home and bailout", they sound good to me. Two years ago when my transmitter quit and I crashed and burned, I started thinking about using some kind of system that would level the plane out and giving it some chance not to start a fire. If we could do that it should be mandatory. Anything that would save my plane would be welcome and I don't need the fear of crashing to get a thrill.

The paragraph in your post predicting the advent of preprogrammed maneuvers is where we probably all would agree to draw the line in the sand. However, I don't see that happening in my lifetime. We can't even program a snap roll, that takes less than a second, as well as a pilot can do with the sticks. When that capability does come along we can take another look at the rules. In the meantime let's think about getting rid of rules that prevent technology from achieving good things.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 12:27 AM

klhoard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK
. .. .
"Walk of Shame" is actually the "Walk of Education", No?

.
It depends on whether or not you were paying attention just before it all went Pear Shaped . . .
.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 2:38 AM

MTK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK
. .. .
"Walk of Shame" is actually the "Walk of Education", No?

.
It depends on whether or not you were paying attention just before it all went Pear Shaped . . .

$ to donuts, you were....just didn't know which emergency to pay the most attention to first, as it all came crashing down (BG)

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 4:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OhD

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmh

Guy and I each have a AS3X equipped UMX SBach-

having flown lots of other tiny ''aerobatic'' models - this one is an eyeopener
Anyone who wants to see how the system MAY perform -in bigger stuff - buy n fly one of these. Our thought was to suggest a mini contest using these - just to have fun and show others what the stabilization thingis all about.

Hey Dick,

I think it ought to be a separate class at all contests. I bet a lot of guys who won't compete now would go for it. Keep the airplanes smaller and the power systems inexpensive. Part of the problem with newcomers is they are afraid to fly their $4000 airplanes.

Jim O

Not a bad idea to have a separate event. IMO It's that, or grant a waiver to Sportsman pilots and solemnly swear that you will take the newbie aside and explain how important it is to really learn how to trim the airplane and handle the gusts, thermals, bird poo, bug guts and other stuff that perturbs the model in flight.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 4:24 AM

NJRCFLYER2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK

quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

Another blatant, shameless Edit....
. So I guess that the pattern community has to find where to draw the line in the sand and decide where the focus should be: on the pilot or the equipment.

I vote for the EQUIPMENT! I just did some figuring and guess what? I can send my airplane to the contest in a box for about $200 round trip, pay someone $50 to get it at the loading dock, drive it over, and set it up, flip the switch and then come back Sunday to crate it back up for the trip home. No more hotel bills, no gas expense, and (burp) no contest quality hot dogs for lunch anymore. I will download my trophy certificate for best algorithm and show it proudly to anyone who wants to hear about it.

hehehe - I know, it doesn't really fly it for you aside from addiing some starch to your flats. Can't I have a little fun?

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 6:57 AM

MTK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NJRCFLYER2

I vote for the EQUIPMENT! I just did some figuring and guess what? I can send my airplane to the contest in a box for about $200 round trip, pay someone $50 to get it at the loading dock, drive it over, and set it up, flip the switch and then come back Sunday to crate it back up for the trip home. No more hotel bills, no gas expense, and (burp) no contest quality hot dogs for lunch anymore. I will download my trophy certificate for best algorithm and show it proudly to anyone who wants to hear about it.

hehehe - I know, it doesn't really fly it for you aside from addiing some starch to your flats. Can't I have a little fun?

Lessee if I can do more fingerin, 250$ will buy me 40 gallons avgas give or take. My gassies sip the stuff so that's enough for 5 years. I'm stayin home 2

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 7:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK

quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK
. .. .
"Walk of Shame" is actually the "Walk of Education", No?

It depends on whether or not you were paying attention just before it all went Pear Shaped . . .

$ to donuts, you were....just didn't know which emergency to pay the most attention to first, as it all came crashing down (BG)

.
Actually, I had one crash where it happened so fast that I still don't know what went wrong. One second it's getting ready to land, and the next it's just a ball of dust with two blades flying out. Reminded me of a little Tasmanian Devil from Looney Toons.
.
One of the fun aspects of helicopters is that crashing isn't the traumatic, self-esteem destroying event it is in pattern. You justice up the twisted wreckage, thro it unceremoniously in the by our truck, and grave the next helo.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/10/2013 7:54 AM

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.
Gotta go yell at some damn kids to get off my lawn . . . BRB
.

< Message edited by klhoard -- 2/10/2013 4:04 PM >

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 4:56 PM

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Ive read a couple times within this conversation.. Sportsman is the entry "Fly what you Brung" ?? Whats Basic class for then? And if Basic is also... maybe its time to trim one of those classes out.

I wouldnt argue letting a newcomer into the Sportsman entry class with the system one time, but this is PATTERN. And Pattern has always been strict about having your fingers do the flying at all times! Anyone here can agree that when the snap roll switch was introduced on radio's, using it in a competition was illegal! So if we wouldnt allow a snap roll switch, how can anyone realistically even begin to argue allowing one of these stabilizing systems?

Pattern is a game of skill at the sticks. Are we not docked points for not correcting from wind? Right.. I think thats point made, IMO. I say no. Nip it in the bud now.

my 2 cents

-JR

< Message edited by Shimano -- 2/14/2013 5:50 PM >

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 5:43 PM

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AMA Pattern does not currently sport a Basic class like Scale Aerobatics has with IMAC.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 5:49 PM

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woops, I guess it was early.. my brain mixed IMAC and Pattern together somehow. Thanks.

Anyways, the rest I said is still valid.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 9:35 PM

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Actually, pattern used to be the event that encouraged new technology and equipment. First single channel, then multi reeds, then proportional, then dual rates, roll buttons, snap switches, variable pitch props, mixing, flight conditions, etc. Snap roll switches were never disallowed. They still aren't. Gyros have been used in the past before someone thought the rules should be changed to disallow them.

Now there is very little new technology that has it's beginnings in pattern. 2.4 came up through the ranks with cars first and then sport planes. Pattern was one of the last disciplines to embrace 2.4. About the only thing I can think of that is "new" technology in pattern is the Contra drive. Electric certainly didn't develop because of pattern.

The event has never been only about who can move the sticks the best. The winner at a pattern contest is the one who gives the best performance. That is a combination of pilot skills, model design, powerplant, set-up and flight trimming.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 9:43 PM

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My comments in bold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shimano

And Pattern has always been strict about having your fingers do the flying at all times!

Not true. In fact early on it was all about thumbs. Maybe we shouldn't allow use of fingers. In fact nothing says one must use joysticks.

Anyone here can agree that when the snap roll switch was introduced on radio's, using it in a competition was illegal!

Not true. We can still use the snap switch but most folks don't as it doesn't work that well. Only the automatic timing was outlawed.

Pattern is a game of skill at the sticks.

I don't agree. It is a game of making YOUR airplane fly precision maneuvers. You could practice forever on a simulator and have perfect fingers and never get there if you didn't know how to do a lot of other things related to planning, selecting, and preparing all of your equipment. And the biggest hurdles are time and money. I say let's not legislate rules that unintendedly end up costing more time and money.

my 2 cents

-JR

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/14/2013 11:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

Actually, pattern used to be the event that encouraged new technology and equipment. First single channel, then multi reeds, then proportional, then dual rates, roll buttons, snap switches, variable pitch props, mixing, flight conditions, etc. Snap roll switches were never disallowed. They still aren't. Gyros have been used in the past before someone thought the rules should be changed to disallow them.

Now there is very little new technology that has it's beginnings in pattern. 2.4 came up through the ranks with cars first and then sport planes. Pattern was one of the last disciplines to embrace 2.4. About the only thing I can think of that is "new" technology in pattern is the Contra drive. Electric certainly didn't develop because of pattern.

The event has never been only about who can move the sticks the best. The winner at a pattern contest is the one who gives the best performance. That is a combination of pilot skills, model design, powerplant, set-up and flight trimming.

.
Then why do we still stubbornly have the weight rule?
.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 12:30 AM

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How do these differ...

I said.. "Pattern is a game of skill at the sticks."

and you argue.. "I don't agree. It is a game of making YOUR airplane fly precision maneuvers."

actually never mind. My bad for commenting.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 1:59 AM

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Tony, it sounds like you and I are on the same page. Pattern did accelerate the development of the technology in the early days but now it is strangled by the rules. I couldn't believe when they outlawed the trimmable thrust alignment device a couple of years ago. I was worried when the TOC went to big airplanes which led to IMAC. I thought, holy cow, we won't have the best flying airplanes anymore. However they have their own set of rules that inhibit development. The helicopter guys seem to be on the right path and it looks like their ranks are growing.

As I mentioned before, we'd be smart to make it mandatory to have some kind of a soft landing device from a safety standpoint. I say, don't ban technology. Who knows where it can take us.

Jim O

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 2:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

Actually, pattern used to be the event that encouraged new technology and equipment. First single channel, then multi reeds, then proportional, then dual rates, roll buttons, snap switches, variable pitch props, mixing, flight conditions, etc. Snap roll switches were never disallowed. They still aren't. Gyros have been used in the past before someone thought the rules should be changed to disallow them.

Now there is very little new technology that has it's beginnings in pattern. 2.4 came up through the ranks with cars first and then sport planes. Pattern was one of the last disciplines to embrace 2.4. About the only thing I can think of that is "new" technology in pattern is the Contra drive. Electric certainly didn't develop because of pattern.

The event has never been only about who can move the sticks the best. The winner at a pattern contest is the one who gives the best performance. That is a combination of pilot skills, model design, powerplant, set-up and flight trimming.

.
Then why do we still stubbornly have the weight rule?
.

Well I must agree the weight rule is beyond lame and makes the sport more expensive for the average guy to make weight with older "used" planes!!

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 3:43 AM

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I should have said:
I say let's not legislate rules that unintendedly end up costing more time and money. Like the weight rule.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 4:03 AM

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Well said Jim!!

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 12:52 PM

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Another point of view

Devils advocate maybe.
As mentioned 3 axis gyros have made flybarless helis a reality. They probably are more stable than flybar helis. The technology has allowed the heli to shrink and I can now fly a sub 1 ounce heli in my living room. Heck I can even attemp to flip it and fly it inverted. But I can't control it like a "pro". Still way beyod my abilities. The Blade MCPX can be flown outside in 25 mph winds, I suspect due to the 3 axis gyro. Its a blast to fly in any condition. I have a bunch of helis but only bring out my big 700 and small mcpx these days to the field.
I have never flown an AS3X plane but have seen the small indoor stuff flown with and without. With definitely looks more stable. That means for most it is probably more fun to fly. Does it allow 4 point rolls with no top rudder? No clue. Hopefully it is not that good

But since it allows more stable flight still needing pilot control I suspect that in the near future every new receiver will have it and "everyone" will be flying with it. If it makes you look like a better pilot people will flock to it.
Will it eventually be allowed in pattern? I guess that really depends on how "good" it really can be. Is there a difference in changing an electronic parameter to make rolls more axial (assuming it can do that) from adjusting the differential on your ailerons (also done electronically these days) No more bending aileron horns or drilling new holes in the servo disc. Did the "old timers" think that this was an unfare advantage when newer features started popping up on radios?
What is the purpose of all of the fins growing out of some pattern planes? They are there to improve the flight characteristics. What about the contra drive? Surely a very sophisticated mechanical device that we are fitting to our airplanes to improve flight characteristics. What if someone developed a rudder trim tab mechanically crosswind activated that totally eliminated the need for using rudder to counteract crosswinds? Not electronic but a feedback device. (not saying this is even possible) Would that be allowed?
Not saying that I am in favor of it never having tried it or knowing what the capabilities really are but I wouldn't be suprised to see it gaining a real foothold in the next few years. It might seem strange if pattern pilots were the only ones not using it. Talk about segregating yourselves

Stuart C.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 2:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sc204

What if someone developed a rudder trim tab mechanically crosswind activated that totally eliminated the need for using rudder to counteract crosswinds? Not electronic but a feedback device. (not saying this is even possible) Would that be allowed?
Stuart C.

Have you ever flown a well-trimmed airplane? What you describe here isn't far off of what a well-trimmed airplane does on its own.

What I'm still trying to understand in all this is: how is it possible for the AS3X to "resist change" from turbulence, or whatever other influences there might be, without controlling the airplane? Even if it's just a little control, and not absolute control, it is still an automated control that is out of the hands of the pilot beyond initial setup.

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mjfrederick AMA 275874 NSRCA 4134
Hebert Competition Designs

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(in reply to sc204)

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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Pattern Universe - RC Pattern Flying >> RC Pattern Flying >> RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest?
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