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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 3:03 PM   
oneaew@msn.com


 

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Status: offline 		i dont enter contest to much bull goes on so i just fly at the fieldwith others who just have fun any plane any radio any engine no one gets upset just a good time

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 3:18 PM   
cmoulder


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: neaew@msn.com">oneaew@msn.com

i dont enter contest to much bull goes on so i just fly at the fieldwith others who just have fun any plane any radio any engine no one gets upset just a good time


I've never heard of anyone forcing anybody else to compete, so you're safe. For now, at least.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 3:42 PM   
LShaver1


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MTK


Suggestion to the proponents...create your own ''Pattern type event'' and call it something else. IF your event draws better than ''Pattern Classic'', congrats and the rest of us may have a decision to make. And IF Pattern Classic goes away in time, then it was time for it to go; so be it! There's nothing Magic about Pattern to remain unscathed over many decades. Other events have died before....





Unfortunately for the pattern community, you are correct Sir

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 3:48 PM   
LD24


 

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Status: offline 		Food for thought...

If you are flying a plane with the AS3X Rx, then you are probably not too interested in competing for a NSRCA District Championship, which is where I see a problem when placement points count...

Here is a win-win...possibly...

Allow the person to fly in the Sportsman Class, but not be eligible for NSRCA District Points or allowed to place in Sportsman when calculating placement points for NSRCA points. The CD can make the call on the hardware. Most people I know don't really make getting a trophy or an award the reason they compete...

Example:

1st Place - Pilot A
2nd Place - Pilot B w/ AS3X
3rd Place - Pilot C

When calculating NSRCA Placement points, 2nd Place drops out and 3rd place earns second place points.

Perhaps if there is a group of AS3X pilots, let the compete in the Sportsman Class and have seperate placement awards for the AS3X pilots.

There are things that can be done at a contest by the CD to still make it fun and help support the growth of pattern or introducing folks to pattern.

The wrong thing to do is to allow an AS3X Rx to be introduced and then we have them being used in 2M Planes and we go away from what I believe pattern is about... The pilot controlling the plane with the best equipment and setup technique they can afford and compete with inside the rules of competition for their class.

NASCAR is not going to allow an F1 car to compete in the Daytona 500 because of technology advances... Auto pilot functions don't belong in Pattern in my humble opinion. I'll bet auto pilot could help my rolls, but then I wouldn't be interested in learning how to do it myself... Just saying... 3 axis control how far do you go once its started... Lift the weight, how far do you go...??? Increase the physical size, how far does it go???

Too many variables to sift through... Change is good, but the wrong change may also hurt the sport of Pattern as well...

My .02

LD
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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 4:11 PM   
klhoard



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quote:

ORIGINAL: OhD
[snip] The helicopter guys seem to be on the right path and it looks like their ranks are growing.[snip]
Jim O

.
Only the "sport flying" ranks are growing, the helicopter Nats are about 10 guys total across all classes . . .
.




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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 4:34 PM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		That is in the so-called "precision" events. In 3D there is quite a bit of competition. And it takes a lot of effort to compete in them.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 5:04 PM   
klhoard



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ORIGINAL: TonyF

That is in the so-called "precision" events. In 3D there is quite a bit of competition. And it takes a lot of effort to compete in them.

.
If you're referring to F3N, then there is even less interest in that in the US.  The top 3D helo guys are the same as the fixed wing guys - they follow the money.
.




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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 5:11 PM   
klhoard



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OK, getting back to stupid rules, why the 10S limit?  Higher voltage batteries allow you to run lower amperages to get the same wattage, which leads to lighter wires, longer component life, less heating, ect.  And PLEASE don't tell me that we have to follow the FAI (Salesman Class).
.
I've heard "danger of electrocution", but I can assure you that every day there are hundreds of 12S battery packs in the hands of helicopter guys that are: overcharged, overdischarged, spindled, mutilated, tacoed (folded in half), over amped, abused, misused, abandoned, kicked around, shorted out, impacted the ground, impacted the ground hard, overdischarged until they catch fire in the air, and generally treated badly.
.
And I haven't heard of ONE incident of a person electrocuted or killed by a 12S pack.
.
[Wipes forehead with damp cloth]
.



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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 6:06 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: offline 		FWIW, I suggested something similar to this back on page 2, post 34, and the discussion since was not generally in favor of these kind of proposals. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11391974

quote:

ORIGINAL: LLD

Food for thought...

If you are flying a plane with the AS3X Rx, then you are probably not too interested in competing for a NSRCA District Championship, which is where I see a problem when placement points count...

Here is a win-win...possibly...

Allow the person to fly in the Sportsman Class, but not be eligible for NSRCA District Points or allowed to place in Sportsman when calculating placement points for NSRCA points. The CD can make the call on the hardware. Most people I know don't really make getting a trophy or an award the reason they compete...

Example:

1st Place - Pilot A
2nd Place - Pilot B w/ AS3X
3rd Place - Pilot C

When calculating NSRCA Placement points, 2nd Place drops out and 3rd place earns second place points.

Perhaps if there is a group of AS3X pilots, let the compete in the Sportsman Class and have seperate placement awards for the AS3X pilots.

There are things that can be done at a contest by the CD to still make it fun and help support the growth of pattern or introducing folks to pattern.

The wrong thing to do is to allow an AS3X Rx to be introduced and then we have them being used in 2M Planes and we go away from what I believe pattern is about... The pilot controlling the plane with the best equipment and setup technique they can afford and compete with inside the rules of competition for their class.

NASCAR is not going to allow an F1 car to compete in the Daytona 500 because of technology advances... Auto pilot functions don't belong in Pattern in my humble opinion. I'll bet auto pilot could help my rolls, but then I wouldn't be interested in learning how to do it myself... Just saying... 3 axis control how far do you go once its started... Lift the weight, how far do you go...??? Increase the physical size, how far does it go???

Too many variables to sift through... Change is good, but the wrong change may also hurt the sport of Pattern as well...

My .02

LD
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NSRCA 3083



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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 6:34 PM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		I'm not referring to F3N. I'm thinking of the XFC, the 3D Masters, etc. There aren't that many who get to go to those things but there are a whole ton of up and comers working at it.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 10:03 PM   
klhoard



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

I'm not referring to F3N. I'm thinking of the XFC, the 3D Masters, etc. There aren't that many who get to go to those things but there are a whole ton of up and comers working at it.

.
I know what you're saying, but I don't think I'd put those events in the same league as AMA pattern.  They are really a spectacle for the factory / professional pilots to sell more stuff.  If there is any "judging" it is only based on subjective criteria and the Applause-O-Meter . . . . Pattern and F3C can be a stepping stone, but the prize money events are really more in line with an info-mercial than an actual objectively judged event.
.




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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 10:08 PM   
bjr_93tz


 

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ORIGINAL: klhoard
.....every day there are hundreds of 12S battery packs in the hands of helicopter guys that are: overcharged, overdischarged, spindled, mutilated, tacoed (folded in half), over amped, abused, misused, abandoned, kicked around, shorted out, impacted the ground, impacted the ground hard, overdischarged until they catch fire in the air, and generally treated badly.....


Yep, hard core heli guys are a special breed


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/15/2013 11:39 PM   
rmh



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

I'm not referring to F3N. I'm thinking of the XFC, the 3D Masters, etc. There aren't that many who get to go to those things but there are a whole ton of up and comers working at it.

Tomorrow morn- Guy and I are going to shake out a VisionAire -

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 12:12 AM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		Hey there Mr. Hanson. I've got about 20 flights on my VisionAire. It's a really good flying 3D model. Could stand a bit more power, but it's enough. Lots of fun, though.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 1:01 AM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Great - I can't see why a 4 cell battery could not be used for more power
not speed - just thrust


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 2:15 AM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		Might be something to try. Would have to watch the current and maybe go with a slightly smaller prop. BTW, I've played with gain settings on the AS3X and the stock is pretty good. You can go higher and it will hover easier but you give up some in the snaps and tumbles. Lots of fun!

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 3:32 AM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Yeh - I have a bunch o electrics in 10/25/32 power - and the 10 does need reduced prop size with it's high KV
On a 13x4 apc and a really strong 3 cell setup it is a great motor.
I don' think I wil use the supplied prop - all of those I tried simply had more vibes than the APCs- I could not eliminate em I also got a big Super Zoom from Guy at Christmas - - 845-under 3 lbs squares (?) all up with a 32 and battery 3 lbs 9 ozs (corrections)

< Message edited by rmh -- 2/16/2013 4:37 PM >

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 5:08 AM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		I think the 10 in the Visionaire is a higher Kv then the standard E-Flite 10. I'm having no vibration issues with the stock prop. They are now back to rear mounting the motor and I've seen no issues. Even with props I've scuffed. Don't know what the Super Zoom is? Any links?

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 1:16 PM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Hacker Super Zoom - Baron RC has em and a lookalike -is available -I think - from Hobbyking called Sniper
all EPP - all very low wing loadings
http://www.rcbaron.com/acatalog/Hacker-Super-Zoom-XXL-HC1293.html
We do use these to "fly thru" pattern sequences
just to get an idea of what is happening.
if you can make things look recognizable using these models - the larger pattern maneuvers done with a dedicated pattern plane are easier.

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< Message edited by rmh -- 2/16/2013 4:35 PM >

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 11:11 PM   
rmh



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

Might be something to try. Would have to watch the current and maybe go with a slightly smaller prop. BTW, I've played with gain settings on the AS3X and the stock is pretty good. You can go higher and it will hover easier but you give up some in the snaps and tumbles. Lots of fun!

We flew it today - as did Guy and Darin-
very nice - - Itried avalanches - it did em well- also Darin did some good inverted flat spins - Guy did rollers and square 8's etc..
very smooth setup (per the manual) not intrusive at all - we used a Apc 12X6 prop -3cell 220ma pack 30 c type
a good confidence inspiring setup -
well worth buying .
PS torque rolls forever -

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/16/2013 11:37 PM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz


quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard
.....every day there are hundreds of 12S battery packs in the hands of helicopter guys that are: overcharged, overdischarged, spindled, mutilated, tacoed (folded in half), over amped, abused, misused, abandoned, kicked around, shorted out, impacted the ground, impacted the ground hard, overdischarged until they catch fire in the air, and generally treated badly.....


Yep, hard core heli guys are a special breed


Ahem...forgot waylaid, parlaid and.....marmalade. Koolaide don't count


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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/25/2013 4:47 PM   
Alan W


 

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Status: offline 		all thoughts should be to looking to increase participation not turning people away ... or turning them "off" because of rules

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/25/2013 5:02 PM   
danamania


 

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Status: offline 		OTOH an unfair contest is also a turn-off, right? Any new technology that is here to stay will take some time to find its way into contest rules? Any examples from pattern history?

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/25/2013 5:25 PM   
TonyF


 

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Status: offline 		Well, when gas engines first became available they competed against the rubber powered free-flight models until separate events were created. In pattern, it was rudder-only first, then guys figured out how to add a throttle control then an elevator. So events were formed to segregate that. Then multi-channel reed systems came out, and classes were formed for them. For a long time pattern had several classes that had limitations on how much control you could have. There was Rudder-only, Rudder-throttle-elevator classes, Multi-Control classes. Proportional systems came out and for a while they went head-to-head against reeds until they dominated and eventually the control limitations were removed and there was Class I, Class II and Multi. In 1976 the skill level classes were created. Then turn-around was started by F3A in 1984 and it slowly migrated to the AMA classes over the years. When the 4-cycle engine was around, at first it was allowed a 33% larger displacement then a 2-cycle, but then F3A allowed the 20cc 4-cycles and that was very quickly adopted by the AMA classes. Engine size limitations were removed and the 2-meter size limit imposed. Electric had always been around but LiPo batteries made it a very viable powerplant in 2003 and we can see how that has changed pattern. Anaolog radio systems then digital then FM, PCM, 512, 1024, 2048 all were immediately used. Programmed fail-safe or hold functions were developed and immediately allowed. Dual rates, roll buttons, snap switches, servo reversing, throw adjustment, exponential, mixing, mulitple compound mixing were all immediately in use. Digital servos were created and immediately used. Synthesized transmitters and receivers on 72 came out and were used. 2.4Ghz entered the market and now is almost universally used.

I may have the order of events a little off, but pattern has in the past embraced new technology and integrated it either immediately or very quickly. The use of automatic programmed flight during competition has been restricted and I think that has been proper.

Keep in mind, many of the technological advances were at first expensive, so they found use by only the top of the heap until it migrated down. Sort of unfair, but that's life.

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RE: AS3X receiver for Sportman at local contest? - 2/25/2013 5:40 PM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Dana,

The most recent were removing engine displacent limits and limiting model size....Specific to electrics, the 42V FAI limit has been embraced

Folks mistakenly thought these would reduce cost and increase participation.... To be fair, some of us experimented with cheap power such as ST23cc with simple, naturally aspirated fuel delivery (dual tanks) 20 years ago. But that didn't last long....

I don't know much about electric cost these days; I certainly hope it has come down since 2003 (Jason's initiation of the new possibilities to the World) and reliability appears to continue to improve. At least for Pattern.

On the other hand, I'm doing my part in developing gasoline alternatives with simple, off the shelf components....so far I've found some that work exceedingly well...... dead reliable, cheap to own and operate, practically maintenance-free, and as powerful as the best glow or electric in this weight class.


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