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Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 7:18 PM   
stevekott



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From: yorba linda, CA, USA
Status: offline 		On another Thread we've been discussing ways to use telemetry to detect a flameout using telemetry.

www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11385864/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

I've had a flameout on a single but not on a twin.  it would be totally different I assume.  The sound wouldn't change much but I'm sure ther would be an asymetical thrust that must be dealt with quickly.  Just add rudder trim?  Is it recoverable?

I only have one twin but I would sure hate to lose it while I still had one candle lit. 

Any experience/advice would be appreciated.


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 7:33 PM   
Flynstuff



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Status: offline 		Steve, check out this thread. kinda based on the A10 but might have some info there you can use.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11359570/tm.htm

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 8:44 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Thanks Jeff,

In that thread I came accross this www.jetpilots.org/contrails/Spring10.pdf 

It had some pretty good insight.  It made it sound like it would be easier on the F-14 than say an A-10 because the motors are a little closer together.  

I've mostly just heard stories of people crashing when a motor goes out but not much about sucessfully regaining control.  I'm thinking I might program the center knob on my TX to be like a "Super Rudder Trim" in the unlikely event I lose 1 motor and I'm quick enough to realize exactly what is happening.  I don't know if I have the cajones to actually try dropping one motor to idle in the air to test it out.  


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 9:09 PM   
wojtek


 

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Status: offline 		I would suggest looking up some threads on twin props as well. Techniques dealing with an engine outage will be similar. The P-38 can be particularly nasty when loosing an engine .. I know the props at least have prop wash, but the P-38 barely has much of a vert stab / rudder however ..



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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 9:54 PM   
mick15



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Status: offline 		A fairly dramatic picture of my FB F15e loosing an engine on take off.

m


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/30/2013 10:43 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Wow what an amazing photo!  Almost afraid to ask .... do you know if pilot able to recover? 

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 12:04 AM   
bevar


 

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Status: offline 		I have a good bit of single engine time on a twin turbine 1/6 F-15 and on a twin Velox XL. I went as far as a single engine take off with the XL at Kentucky last year.

It's no big deal and you do not need anything other than the transmitter in your hands to realize one engine has quit.

That being said, if you had a twin turbine 757 and lost one...that would be completely different.

Here is a pic of me landing with the R/H engine shutdown at SJS this past year.

Beave

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 12:30 AM   
stevekott



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From: yorba linda, CA, USA
Status: offline 		 Great input, beautiful bird.  Thanks for sharing!

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 1:51 AM   
FenderBean



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Status: offline 		I would think something like the F-15/F-18/ and even the f-14 would do okay since the pipes are so close together. Im sure I will find out some day


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 5:19 AM   
bevar


 

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Status: offline 		Steve,

You are welcome. In the real world, F-15 pilots get "centerline thrust only" certifications on their FAA licenses when they convert to civilian ratings, but it's still not quite that easy engine out. On the Fei-Bao -15 and the Velox XL, it still takes a bootfull of rudder to keep it straight or it will roll over in a heartbeat.

It's not uncontrolable, you just have to fly the rudder.

B

The pic is the Twin Velox XL. That's about as close as you can get to Centerline Thrust and it still takes a good bit of rudder to keep going straight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stevekott

 Great input, beautiful bird.  Thanks for sharing!



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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 8:03 AM   
warbirdfanatic


 

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Status: offline 		On my twin prop P61 it required quite a bit of rudder with the slightest aileron trim, I was going to program in 2 switches for which ever engine cut out so it could trim up to compensate etc! With a twin turbine the only way I found any help was by coming down steep to gain speed then get into a gradual stall on some thick grass just incase!!!!


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 9:13 AM   
alasdair



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quote:

ORIGINAL: mick15
A fairly dramatic picture of my FB F15e loosing an engine on take off.
m


OK you've left us in suspense long enough. What's next in the photo sequence?  A smokin hole or a nice landing?
How did you deal with it?


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 11:33 AM   
mick15



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Status: offline 		Ok yes, :-) suspense over, the flight ended ok, but as everyone knows once an F15 is in the “high alpha” config it makes flying very difficult and because gaining height when you have less power than weight is almost impossible you just have to hang in there and hope.

That aircraft fully fuelled weighs over 60lbs and with only 38lbs of thrust you can appreciate the difficulty, because the nose has to be kept so high to keep it in the air I suppose half the weight of the model is supported by the wing and the rest by the engine it won’t surprise you to learn I only completed one circuit!

Because the F15 has such a large fin area asymmetric thrust doesn’t have a major effect, besides applying rudder on one of these will almost certainly result in a spectacular flick roll.

I offer a video to show the model performs quite well when both engines are running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIfvzfLCNQQ&feature=share&list=LLErhs4oLeDJcUNuf7YKFO-A

m

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 11:42 AM   
CraigG



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quote:

ORIGINAL: stevekott

Thanks Jeff,

In that thread I came accross this www.jetpilots.org/contrails/Spring10.pdf 

It had some pretty good insight.  It made it sound like it would be easier on the F-14 than say an A-10 because the motors are a little closer together.  


According to VF84sluggo, the F-14 was actually somewhat of a handfull with an engine out. I guess he should know since he flew them in the Navy. After he read my article refrenced above, he sent me this PM:


quote:

ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Not to pick nits, but the F-14, after some early notorious mishaps of the "V1 Cut" variety, was no longer considered to be "centerline thrust." Boldface and training were changed to reflect this reality.

The FAA got onboard. F-14 guys going the military-competency route to get their commercial/instrument/multi-engine ticket did not get the "limited to centerline thrust" restriction on their license. I got my military-competency commercial rating prior to the change, and had the restriction. Once the FAA changed it's view on the F-14, I took my logbook and NATOPS jacket to the local FSDO and they issued me a new license without the centerline-thrust restriction.


Craig

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 3:29 PM   
Jack Diaz


 

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Status: offline 		I guess this issue cannot be generalized. It depends on the airplane.

I have had countless flame outs on my BVM Rafale and on my BVM Phantom, and it is hard to notice. You have to pull vertical to realize if you have an engine off, and which one it is.
I have also witness a MIBO A-10 loosing an engine on take off, and been able to do a lap and land.

I would say that the key issue is to manage your landing approach so that you don't need to add power after turning to base. And if possible, avoid doing the base turn towards the dead engine. Once on final, land as if it was a dead stick.

Jack

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 5:32 PM   
wjvail



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Status: offline 		The engines on an F-14 are 14 feet apart and the problems with asymmetric thrust, rudder authority and single engine performance only got (much) worse with the B model. F-14's were prohibited from "burner shots" off the ship with the B model to make the airplane controllable off the cat in the event of an engine failure. Off the cat, in burner, and with an engine out the plane was not flyable. The "tunnel" on a Tomcat was huge.

As others have pointed out, losing an engine on a two engine plane can be everything from a non-event to pretty challenging.



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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 7:22 PM   
vega406


 

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Status: online 		David Payne was on the sticks of my FEJ F-14 when it had a flame out i can,t remember all he had to do but it was flyable and interesting i have SimJet 3000 in it and they spool up ok but throttle down is slow so he had to do a go around when it didn,t slow enough for touch down and 30lb thrust was enough to get it up and around again for perfect landing..one of my tanks slid forward and kinked the line at half tank

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 9:42 PM   
stevekott



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From: yorba linda, CA, USA
Status: offline 		 Well its often said that "in a twin that the dead engine is the one you yaw away from and the running engine is the one that will lead you to the scene of the crash".

Looks like an F-14 with the wide tunnel will be more of a handful than some of the other "center-line thrust" jets.  I hope to never experience it but you guys have given some great insight on what to expect.  It's encouraging that so far everyone has recovered their aircraft, no smoking holes .  


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 1/31/2013 11:43 PM   
DiscoWings



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Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttNLSToMIpQ

this jet flew all around with just 1 engine many times, it had amt engines

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/1/2013 3:56 PM   
67Jag


 

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Status: offline 		Reading this thread w/ great interest as I have been interested in building/flying a 'center-line thrust' F-15, single pipe, w/ just one nozzle outlet.  Just started a new thread, 'Asymmetrical Thrust'...most appreciate your comments...esp Craig C (trerrific Contrails article!).  Tx

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/1/2013 6:57 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Here's an A-10 who was not so lucky.
Looks like a pretty high Angle of Attack when it happened that compounded the problem.  Not much time for the computer between the ears to analyze and correct.

www.youtube.com/watch






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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/1/2013 8:51 PM   
mauryr


 

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Status: offline 		How about mixing the rudder input (but not the trim) with differential thrust? 
Say your left engine flames out while at full throttle, if you're awake enough you will counter with a hard right rudder input and probably some right aileron by instinct to counter the roll. I doubt I would have the time to also remember to kill the throttle. If a good 30~50% of the throttle is killed automatically by the hard rudder input, odds are you can save the plane and have time to think about what to do, then you can add some right rudder trim and release the rudder input a bit, allowing the engine to spool up some as well.

Does this make any sense? 

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/1/2013 10:14 PM   
bidrseed2


 

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Status: offline 		Stevekott,
Thought you might find this interesting....
During the single engine training part of my 737 conversion course, I asked the ex air force instructor how difficult it was to fly the phantom single engine, presuming it would be relatively easy as the engines were close together.
He explained that it still required a bootful of rudder. The rationale being that a fin without a rudder is lighter than a fin with a rudder. To save weight the manufacturer wants to make the rudder as small as possible, but just large enough to control the aircraft in the event of an engine loss.
Therefore, if the aircraft you're flying has closely spaced engine, you're going to have small rudder! It will still need to be flown with the rudder in the event of a failure.
(all other things being equal of course)

And for someone whose about to place a order for the small skymaster A10, that's a terrifying video you posted !

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/1/2013 11:48 PM   
Mark H


 

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Status: offline 		Humm first time was on AD Jets Su 27 no rudders fitted , coming in to land cross wind, tried to throttle up it turned into wind three point landing ,two fins and cockpit, fully rebuilt, ho hum. Only thing hurt was pride, second and third , same plane jetpower , noticed power loss finished flight, on one Booster 90+ landed but no heroics just straight in straight landing no power to flair out, two flight later same other engine thought , height on my side kept power on finish flight ,but again no power when slow just a straight landing.
FEJ F14 on test flights one engine out turned away from stopped motor kept power on mid range landed lots of rudder but could feel it wanting to roll on rudder , landed phew! Jetpower same model same bloody engine but fast this time , kept it moving 1x180 + again no heroics or go rounds straight in on landing, always turn away from stopped motor , this is easy to say as long as you can tell or see smoke from stopping motor, LUCKY yes I have been , so far, I still love twins,

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/5/2013 7:53 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		All of you A-10 Flyers/builders close your eyes the following material may be disturbing.

This happened two weeks ago at my home field.  I was not there so my apologies if I don't have every detail right.  One of my good friends was there and I am basing this on his first hand account.

This was a two year build and only it's second flight.  The first flight was without incident.  Toward the end of the flight the pilot felt something unusual and suspected one of the engines had flamed out.  

I did read something in an earlier post that it can be difficult sometimes to even notice a flameout and that it was most noticable in a vertical climb.  I don't know if that explains his actions but this is what the pilot did and I'm sure he regrets it.

To determine if he indeed had a flameout and figure out which engine it was, the pilot put the plane into a vertical climb.  Very shortly the climb became a hammerhead stall and ... well it looked a lot like the earlier video in this thread.

 

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< Message edited by stevekott -- 2/12/2013 8:41 PM >

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