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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/5/2013 9:07 PM   
yeahbaby



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Status: online 		damn shame about the loss of a good looking bird, but I'm not sure I agree with the notion of going into the vertical to aid in determining engine out.

hopefully, he'll tackle another one.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/5/2013 9:29 PM   
stevekott



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quote:

ORIGINAL: yeahbaby

damn shame about the loss of a good looking bird, but I'm not sure I agree with the notion of going into the vertical to aid in determining engine out.
.


Yes it seems like that is exact wrong thing to do.  I'm just speaking theoretically but it seems like the most wind blowing over your tail feathers would be what you want and reducing power to reduce the asymmetrical thrust.  I'm just guessing but I would think that once you lost a motor you would instantly go out of trim.  And whichever way to are turning to is the dead engine.  Perhaps that would be enough of an indication of the problem.

I noticed on the way down he had full deflection of up elevator.  Perhaps if he would have reduced power (to get out of the asymmetrical thrust spin) pushed forward on the stick to break the stall and then pulled back after a few seconds hey may have been able to recover.  Things happen so fast it's hard to say.  It's very counter-intuitive to reduce power, push forward on the stick and panic all at the same time.



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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 5:54 AM   
dubd



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Status: offline 		Beautiful A-10. I agree with Buck on not going into a vertical upon engine out. You'll bleed off your precious airspeed and you won't have a chance to recover.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 9:08 AM   
mick15



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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 1:40 PM   
Jack Diaz


 

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Status: offline 		Dantley:
As I said on my post, this issue cannot be generalized.
It depends on the airplane aerodynamics, power to weight ratio, distance between exhausts, exhaust axis, etc. etc.

Some of the awesome verticals you saw with the Rafale at BITW, were with one engine out . In fact, you realize that one engine is dead only because the vertical drifts towards the dead engine. Then, you have the information you need for your landing approach. And you proceed to land immediately, of course.

Now, if you know that one engine is dead because you can feel the loss of power and the yaw change; of course that you don't do anything but prepare to land. (I never meant to suggest to go vertical with a barely flying coffin )

The issue with the A-10 is not that "you" go vertical intentionally.... "the airplane pitches up by itself when it looses an engine", as I have seen on the videos... that's a different and dangerous issue.

On the other hand, on airplanes like the Rafale with high power to weight ratio and clean aerodynamics, you "need" to identify the dead engine before trying to land. If you don't know that you had a flame out, and try to approach turning towards the dead engine, most likely you won't be able to recover if you apply power during base or final. BTW, this is not theory !!!!
A telemetry flame out indicator would be priceless !!!

Jack

< Message edited by Jack Diaz -- 2/6/2013 2:18 PM >

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 6:45 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		My dad used to say "A smart man learns from his own mistakes, but a smarter man learns from someone elses".  That's what is so great about these forums.  I'm guessing most of us if not all of us remember that terrible feeling of bringing home one of our 'loved ones' home in a couple of trash bags .. two words .. It sucks!

I really appreciate all the great input we have gotten from you great guys.  Like I said earlier, I've never had a flameout in my twin but after all of your input I have a much better Idea of what to do and what not to do.

The fact that the A-10 pilot felt a need to go vertical to determine the dead engine must have meant that is was not easy for him to tell just by flying around.  I guess we can figure that with some planes it is much easier to tell than with others.

On a good note! 

I've been racking my brain over the last few days trying to figure out a telemetry flameout detector for a twin.  I did some testing on it last night and it looks VERY promising.  It will be inexpensive, reliable and easy to make.  I will start a thread on it after I get a couple more things figured out.

Steve






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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 7:11 PM   
Gonzalo38



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Status: offline 		I lost my Skymaster A-10 a little over a year ago in the same runway were the video of the other A-10 was shot. Almost no time to react, specially because of the noise of the wind and the presence of other jets flying.

The Skymaster A-10 seems to be a very unique animal and I haven't heard of anybody that have faced a flameout and have landed the plane without any trouble. Everybody reports than in the Mibo this is not a problem, but for sure in the Skymaster it is.

Ready to maiden my new Skymaster A-10 in a couple of weeks and a flameout detector would be great (even that I doubt I would have time to react......)

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 8:15 PM   
dubd



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Status: offline 		Jack, well stated. I have never experienced a flame out on a twin, so I'm trying to soak up as much information as I can in the event that it happens. My comment about gaining altitude was related to the A-10, which I was assuming would just stall and go into a unrecoverable dive. Glad you're here to help school us noobs on the issue.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/6/2013 9:02 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Here's the link to the Flameout Detector I've been working on.  Havent fully tested it yet but I think it is going to work

Steve

 www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11399981/tm.htm




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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/7/2013 3:18 AM   
Jack Diaz


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Dantley .... wax in wax out

I think that what happens with the A-10's is due to the fact that the thrust line is way above the wings. So, the engines exert a force that translates in a moment or torque that pushes down the airplane nose.
During flight all these forces are balanced. BUT, if you suddenly reduce the down pushing force by half, the airplane reaction is to pitch up ... then the drag increases .... the speed goes down ... the live engine is inducing a torque on the yaw axis ... stall ... spin ... ground

In other words, it wasn't the pilot pulling up !!


Gonzalo, good luck with the maiden. Hope this one will last forever. Please say hello to Michael.


Steve, great idea. Thinking up loud, I wonder if it will be possible to translate the engine out signal into an elevator gyro "gain". The A-10's could benefit a lot with this, since the gyro may compensate the sudden up pitch. That gyro will have zero gain during the flight, but will kick in with high gain faster than the pilot's recognition of the problem. Again, just a thought !

Jack

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/7/2013 2:34 PM   
RCflyerCT


 

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Status: offline 		I think I remember seeing a video of one of Anton's early prototype flights of the large A10, where he has a flameout.  It looked to me like he corrected quickly with rudder and nose down, and landed safely, but the video was somewhat grainy so I may be mistaken. 

Based on the videos I have seen posted here and elsewhere, I would definately not have time to react to prevent the stall and ultimate crash.  Love the idea of a gyro setting, but not sure how that could be accomplished.  I have the new 1/7 scale smaller A10 from skymaster that I am going to make an EDF, so we will see how that experiment turns out, LOL!

Wes

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/7/2013 8:33 PM   
stevekott



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Diaz

Steve, great idea. Thinking up loud, I wonder if it will be possible to translate the engine out signal into an elevator gyro "gain". The A-10's could benefit a lot with this, since the gyro may compensate the sudden up pitch. That gyro will have zero gain during the flight, but will kick in with high gain faster than the pilot's recognition of the problem. Again, just a thought !

Jack


Also thinking out loud Jack,

You could use something like this:

hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17143__Simple_Servo_Tester.html

Yank off the potentiometer, then feed it with fixed resistors that are powered with a relay setup powered off the Smoker port or Fuel Solenoid.  Normally Closed give it the resistance needed to make the servo driver tell the Gyro to do "Low Gain".  In the Normally open (engine quit) give the servo driver the resistance to send the gyro into "High Gain" .  Be careful on the Gyro that you don't give it full gain for "Heading Lock" mode.  


Side note: I tested my flameout detector last night and it worked pretty well:

www.youtube.com/watch

I don't know if it would save an SM A-10 looks like things happen pretty quickly but within 4 or 5 seconds you will have an alarm and know which motor is taking you to the scene of the crash 





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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/8/2013 2:50 PM   
storrie23



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Pablo Fernandez had a engine flame out on my Mibo A-10 at Top Gun 2011, it was on his third maneuver, he continued on to finish his last to maneuvers and landed without incidence. His score was 94!


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/8/2013 6:48 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Nice to hear .  Is it something that makes it worse in Skymasters or is it just when it happens in flight? 

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/8/2013 7:09 PM   
dubd



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Status: offline 		Steve, from what I've heard, the SM is more prone to disaster if using anything above 100N engines if an engine quits. Unfortunately the plane weighs the same as the Mibo A-10 and is smaller, so 140N are preferred for optimal flight performance.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/12/2013 5:55 PM   
STAN-CAUSSEL


 

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Status: offline 		Hi
Here is my personal experience about Mibo A10 and Engine flame-out.
On my first A10 ( shark mouth ) I used a switch on the radio to un-mix the 2 engines. So that one engine stabilizes at idle and I keep the control on the second one.
I tested that in flight to train to cope with disymetrical thrust and be sure that the Mibo A10 is able to flight well on 1 engine.
Here is a video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mhn0uhvceY
The left engine was reduced to idle and the A10 flies perfectly. It's a matter of speed. There was absolutely no counter action at the rudder.
The most important thing in this experience was to loose the fear of engine shut off.
Some flights later ( flight n°32 ) I loose an engine because of air into my fuel circuit ( bad festo connection ). I flight 3 minutes on one engine without even notice the problem. The flight was acrobatic with looping , barrels, immelmann.... A friend of mine informed me of the heavy drift when at the end of the flight I made a low-slow pass. I was wondering why I need so much throttle to keep my speed stabilized.
I lowered the gear and extend full flaps only on final path and runway free.
I sold this A10 at almost 100 flights in perfect conditions ...
On my second Mibo A10 I had an engine flame out during the last flight ( RPM sensor failure ) and the end of flight was safe with kiss landing.
So.... I feel the Mibo A10 ( at Mibo CG, 70 Lbs and 2 P160SX) very, very safe.
Nevertheless I think also that a safe indicator of right or left flame out could very very useful. May be with current sensor on fuel pumps by telemetry.
I made a switch on my throttle stick to activate a mix : engine => rudder ( left or right depending on the engine out )
here is a link:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6965817/mpage_17/key_/tm.htm
Good flights
Stan
another video of the second A10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRmF1FSjRSc&list=UUM4qZXXhmcBWhGQxookjhfw&index=1&feature=plcp


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/12/2013 8:26 PM   
stevekott



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Status: offline 		Stan,

Thank you for sharing your experiences.  Your A-10's are BEAUTIFUL!   Amazing Detail.

You are the first I've heard of intentionally flying with asymmetrical thrust.  Great idea, great courage.  Your input will give confidence to the A-10 builders who have mixed anxieties about what they might expect.  

I talked with my friend who took the pictures of the A-10 above who was not so lucky.  It was confirmed that it was the planes second flight and indeed there was a single engine flameout.  The pilot was confused about which engine it might have been.  He wanted to confirm the engine out and INTENTIONALLY put the plane into a straight up climb with full power.   At the apex the plane snapped over into a spiral dive.  Perhaps he could have saved it by pushing forward on the stick, opposite rudder and reducing power and then after regaining speed, pulling out.  A lot to think about .  I'm not familiar enough to know if it was a Maibo or a Skymaster but I was told it weighed 70+ lbs.

Thanks for your input as it gives a lot of great insight as to the RIGHT things to do.

Regarding a flameout detector, with the new telemetry radios we've started the following thread:

www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11399981/anchors_11399981/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#11399981

We've been having some great results so far with relatively simple systems.






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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/20/2013 12:38 AM   
ravill



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Status: offline 		Sorry to bring this week old thread back, I have also seen the big Mibo A-10 continue to fly and land with an engine out. Billy did that at least on occasion without incident.

And I think Jack and Wojtek are VERY correct! Each airfame will be a bit different and props can help us alot!

I never had a flame out in my P-38 but I did have one in my B-25.

I barely had enough time to react as it started its spiral of death like that A-10 above.

Dantley, if you see your A-10 start its spiral of death, go to IDLE immediately, suck the gear up and make a B-line for the runway. If you can't make the runway, then your wings will be level when it goes down hopefully minimizing damage.

If your twin starts the spiral of death, leaving the throttle up or, increasing the throttle, in the other engine will only make it worse.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/20/2013 5:43 AM   
dubd



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Status: offline 		Raf, I'll definitely go to idle... but then I will toss the transmitter to you.

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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/20/2013 6:44 AM   
DelGatoGrande



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Build in "toe out" of the exhausts will help.
When both engines running they eliminate rudder input of each other. When one engine running it will help with correct rudder thrust.

The only devise can contribute in this satiation by damping out unwanted moves and make things easier,just came out and its this one


http://powerbox-systems.com/e/powerbox_systeme/powerbox_igyro/start.php




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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/24/2013 10:16 PM   
Roger Shipley


 

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Status: offline 		I AM STILL GETTING INQUIRIES REGARDING FLAME OUT EXPERIENCES WHILE FLYING THE MIBO A-10. THE FOLLOWING IS A REPEAT OF A POST WE MADE A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO ON ANOTHER THREAD. "As to our experience with flame outs we have been party to three in the MIBO A-10s. Our FIRST was on rotation when we realized the right burner (28lbs) was out. T/O was left to right so did a natural left aileron, gear up, gradual climb out, Jimbo give us a few clicks of left rudder & corrected my tendency to bank hard left for final, so we few a rather large lazy base into final landing without further incident. The SECOND was far more dramatic at Winamac doing a check flight for AMA Certification. As we came out of a split S, our second maneuver, when increasing power (28lb blowers) we noted a left yaw so increased the power to +/- ¾ continuing to complete all maneuvers, except the spin, & landed. Granted the loop, aileron/barrel roll, immelman, etc. were all off heading. Subsequently, chatting with Greg Hilderbrandt our Inspector, I commented was it really necessary to pull an engine with him saying that I appeared a bit nervous which I surely was! The THIRD was at Cincinnati Jets when I was spotting for Rod Ballard flying his MIBO A-10. I didn’t notice the flame out right away but Goose did so advised Ron to just maintain sufficient throttle to fly straight and level with 360s until he got his orientation and I fed in a few clicks of left rudder. After a few circuits he landed without further incident. As to Gyros…sure on both rudders & the nose wheel for ground handling and final.I really question the desirability for a flame out, at least for a MIBO Hog, when they are totally predictable and controllable. Why would you want a specialty gyro or mix doing its thing which you may or not want given the situation? The most important thing that has not been said is…MAKE NO EXCESSIVE STICK MOVEMENTS; every input must be gradual and deliberate."


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RE: Ever had a flameout on a twin and care to share? - 2/25/2013 12:03 AM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Roger,
Please send me a PM.
Thanx.
Art ARRO

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