RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics

RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics
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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/29/2003 4:19:34 AM

MTT

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Just thought a bit more about the battery issue.

Yes, a fully charged, healthy 600 mAh pack will power the servos in this plane for more than the reported 3 min flight.

But, are we sure here about the state of the pack ? Was it fully charged ?
Shawn writes :

quote:

The Batt I guess read 5.9 after the flight?

Was that under load ?
Because if it wasn't measured under load, these 5.9 V don't tell you anything at all !
The pack could just as well be at an almost discharged state, that as soon as you put a load on it, the voltage collapses.

Michael

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/29/2003 4:29:20 AM

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The load question brings up an interesting topic. How do you check a battery under load? I guess probably a small resistor circuit conected to a multimeter would work.

Also, anybody know how much power (mah) a standard servo and reciever pull each?

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/29/2003 6:43:07 AM

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I keep a constant watch of my battery voltage under load by using an I4C digital read out screen mounted in the cockpit of my Pitts. It's plugged directly into the receiver for measurement as the servos are operated. I ALWAYS know what the battery voltage is both before and after landing. Another way is to test your battery condition with an expanded scale volt meter that places load on the battery. Do this before AND immediately after each flight. I personally prefer a 300 to 500 mAH load to test my batteries, but then again I use only digital servos for flight surfaces.

A standard receiver will draw about 20 mAh. A standard servo draws somewhere close to 45 mAH, AT IDLE. A battery can be drawn down due to excessive servo load to a point where the signal can be interrupted from the receiver to the servo. After the load is removed, the battery will return to a near normal state. This would be an extreme condition. 5 or 6 digital or high torque servos on a 600 mAH battery could be considered an extreme state when all the servos are at full load simultaneously. A quick trip to the calculator would indicate how much reserve battery capacity would be available for operational flight in this particular incident.

I like to triple my average servo draw at idle, multiply by the number of servos used, and use the total for a rough figure for minimum battery size. These numbers are not to be cast in concrete as gospel. They are what I have always worked with for a basis in determining battery requirements and in 30 years have never let me down.

A receiver battery will almost always show an increased charge state after the previous flight if it has been turned off for a while. This is a false reading due to a very small ability to self recover. A flashlight will do the same thing if the batteries are run down. Turn it off for a while and then turn it back on. Unless the batteries are completely daed, you will get some light again.

I have presumed that no instructions were provided by the owner to either fly, or not fly the aircraft. I personally would not leave an aircraft and radio with anyone without specific instructions as to the handling, use, storage, or whatever, of my plane. I am also a professional builder and I would not, under any conditions, fly another persons plane without their express permission. Preferably with the owner present.

I apologise for being so direct. I may have failed to note the possible inexperience of the aircraft owner. This forum (or any other net forum) will not assist the owner to recover damages in any way. I still suggest that the aircraft owner get all his facts together and look into presenting them in a legal forum (courtroom) for possible recovery. Any willing witnesses would probably help. The worst he could do is lose the case, and that would not cost him but a little more that he has already lost. Do bear in mind that many, many things can cause the loss of an aircraft, and it will be up to the owner to establish the cause. Of course, if permission was not granted to fly the aircraft, the cause is immediately established. I would think so, anyway. Please don't take the previous to be legal advice, it's just what I would do in a similar situation.

In any case, I would not even think about flying with the same group of people again. I would seek out another location where the people have a desire to help people of lesser ability and/or knowledge.

My sincerest regrets for the aircraft owners loss. It was beautiful plane that took a lot of work to assemble properly and it has to hurt.

Silversurfer

< Message edited by Silversurfer -- 9/29/2003 11:17:11 PM >

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/29/2003 4:19:19 PM

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.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 2:11:30 AM

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Awesome job Silversurfer. Thanks a bundle. Just one question, where did you find those specs?

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 4:12:31 AM

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To be perfectly candid, I cannot for the life of me recall exactly where I obtained the figures. I do recall that over the years, the number used for the receiver has been used by several manufacturers and is still currently used by several aftermarket and primary product manufacturers.

The servo numbers used are what I have used for years after learning from one source or another that the average current draw for most standard servos was the same for most makers of servos. If not the same, then close enough to each other not to bother with the difference.

Digital servos are a new baliwick altogether. With digital servos, the current draw at idle is influenced by quite a few different factors. Not the least of which is how much torque is being used just to hold the flight surface level. Don't forget to factor in any possible servo bind that may be taking place. This last is also very important with standard servos. I need to give Hitec a call one of these days to get idle current information on their digitals.

Any questions someone may have about current draw and receiver "dropout" can be answered by thinking about how the lights will dim on a house circuit when someone starts using a high current draw appliance or tool such as a high torque skillsaw starting to bind up, or a portable arc welder plugged into the same circuit. The principle is the same. If the fuse doesn't blow, the lights will dim as the available amperage on that circuit reaches peak or peak is exceeded.

Shawn, the next time you start setting up a plane, if you have any questions, or are uncertain about a proceedure, feel free to send me a private e-mail and I will be more than happy to assist you. I believe I could effectively explain and illuminate through written text what you need to find out. If not, then I can steer you to others who can. If anyone out there deserves the assistance, you do.

Silversurfer

< Message edited by Silversurfer -- 9/29/2003 11:26:58 PM >

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 4:41:56 AM

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I guess contacting the manufacturer would be a good way to check also.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 2:55:52 PM

PJC

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Regardless of battery size status etc. I have little understanding of the topic nor do I really want any, I just over engineer in the batt. dep. I think my trainer even has a 1200 in it. Whatever.

The point is this guy lost a nice plane and the owner was not even present for the maiden flight. What kind of moron maiden's a plane without the owner present? Anyone with more than 6 months experience knows better than that. The only excuse I have heard is "apparently he (Shawn) is hard to reach". I personally feel this newbie (shawn) is be taken serious advantage of. I feel this way regardless of permission to fly. Anyone who claims to be a builder for hire should know better than to fly someone elses plane. Example:

I take my truck to dealer for some work, while there they break it. They are resposible for replacement/repair.

Real life example for me:

I have major overhaul done on my Cessna 152, owner of the airport took it up for test flight. The oleo strut blew on his landing. It was not his fault, I insisted on paying for the repair, but he would not hear of it. That's a stand up guy!!!

Well I hope Shawn gets some retribution in this case.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 3:31:35 PM

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I have read this since the get-go, and held my tongue, but I can't do it any longer.

I have flown for a year now. I picked it up fast, and burned my 14th gallon of fuel as of Sunday. I have flown 5 of my own aircraft, as well as maidened 4 trainers for 4 other people.

Out of those 4 maidens, I checked the gear over myself, including the battery packs. Once I felt things were safe, and only then, did they go up for a few short circles. Then I landed them and checked everything all over again. If things checked out again, I took them up a little longer and maybe did a loop or two. But that's it! I'm not going to do any complex aerobats with someone elses money in my hands!

Now, assuming what Shawn says is true (which I think it is), the pilot, and only the pilot is at fault. I don't give a rat's behind if the builder guy gave the pilot permission, even when the builder guy didn't have permission himself. Thats between the builder guy and the pilot. Shawn's beef is with the pilot on this one. The pilot is at fault. He should've checked things out before flying it. The pilot is at fault. Even if it was a battery failure, the pilot is at fault. The pilot should pay full restitution, then go after his builder buddy for giving him permission to fly it, when he had no real permisssion to do so.

To all you '600 mah pack isn't enough' naysayers: Have you ever set up a plane with a smaller battery pack because the pack you intended to use was in another plane at the time? I've been doing this only one year, and I have. Regardless of Shawn's intentions with the pack (whether he was going to use it or not), the PILOT should've checked things out himself. After all, he had $1400 of somebody elses money in his hands! Is it that frickin' hard to understand?

Common sense dictates the pilot is at fault in this matter. Anyone with common sense will see it that way. Those who think Shawn is at fault because the pack was to small, or because he let the guy have the radio, should think about investing in some ocean front property I have for sale in Arizona.

Simply put, the pilot owes Shawn. If the pilot took the word of the builder that everything was OK, I guess the pilot should try to get some of the money back from his builder friend after he pays Shawn.

< Message edited by Deadeye -- 9/30/2003 10:34:09 AM >

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 9/30/2003 3:44:49 PM

PJC

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The best builders in the world know that on maiden, anything can happen, flutter interference, structural failure, engines fall off, wheels jump ship, Gas tanks burst open, control surfaces abort mission, etc, etc, etc. I have lost planes on maiden, and I have seen even more, heartbreakers all of them. You really have to be a monkey's uncle to maiden a plane without the owner present, to not have them there is grounds enough for fault in my eyes. Had shawn been standing right there it would have been a non-issue.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/1/2003 4:37:52 PM

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Now if you all go back to the beginning, you will find this; 600 Battery (was considering getting a new one when I was ready to fly it). Regardless, 600 was more than ample for one flight properly charged(especially one that only lasted 3 minutes). The size and state of the pack has nothing to do with what happened. Club members have left their Radios and Planes with me to set up or fix and the only time they make a trip to the Field is to go back to there rightful owners.
That Aircraft should never of left the builders house without the owners permission. Everything else DOES NOT MATTER.

< Message edited by wiggles -- 10/1/2003 11:40:37 AM >

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/1/2003 7:44:47 PM

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Just for the record, my name is Chuck and I DIDN'T do it!!!

I think the dude owes you a plane, simple enough!!

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/1/2003 8:42:33 PM

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I have just discovered this thread and have found it VERY interesting.

After reading all the posts, I have to assume that the people that took out the plane for the test flight were going to joy fly it around, thus wringing it out for their own enjoyment. Then later they were going to call the owner for the "test flight". I see no other explanation of why they didn't call the owner to be there for the test flight.

I have been building and flying for a long time and have put many a plane together for people. I have also conducted the test flights (always with them there). Almost always, I have had all the equipment that would have been required to fly some pretty nice planes. While this is tempting, I'VE NEVER EVER EVER gone out and flown someone else's plane without them there. It is not my property.

I have to conclude that these people that flew your plane were obviously taking it out for a "joy ride".

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/1/2003 8:51:51 PM

P-51B

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deadeye

I have read this since the get-go, and held my tongue, but I can't do it any longer.

I have flown for a year now. I picked it up fast, and burned my 14th gallon of fuel as of Sunday. I have flown 5 of my own aircraft, as well as maidened 4 trainers for 4 other people.

Out of those 4 maidens, I checked the gear over myself, including the battery packs. Once I felt things were safe, and only then, did they go up for a few short circles. Then I landed them and checked everything all over again. If things checked out again, I took them up a little longer and maybe did a loop or two. But that's it! I'm not going to do any complex aerobats with someone elses money in my hands!

Now, assuming what Shawn says is true (which I think it is), the pilot, and only the pilot is at fault. I don't give a rat's behind if the builder guy gave the pilot permission, even when the builder guy didn't have permission himself. Thats between the builder guy and the pilot. Shawn's beef is with the pilot on this one. The pilot is at fault. He should've checked things out before flying it. The pilot is at fault. Even if it was a battery failure, the pilot is at fault. The pilot should pay full restitution, then go after his builder buddy for giving him permission to fly it, when he had no real permisssion to do so.

To all you '600 mah pack isn't enough' naysayers: Have you ever set up a plane with a smaller battery pack because the pack you intended to use was in another plane at the time? I've been doing this only one year, and I have. Regardless of Shawn's intentions with the pack (whether he was going to use it or not), the PILOT should've checked things out himself. After all, he had $1400 of somebody elses money in his hands! Is it that frickin' hard to understand?

Common sense dictates the pilot is at fault in this matter. Anyone with common sense will see it that way. Those who think Shawn is at fault because the pack was to small, or because he let the guy have the radio, should think about investing in some ocean front property I have for sale in Arizona.

Simply put, the pilot owes Shawn. If the pilot took the word of the builder that everything was OK, I guess the pilot should try to get some of the money back from his builder friend after he pays Shawn.

Got to disagree. He left the plane in someones care. That person is at fault, he is the one who gave it to the third party to fly.

If I leave my Ferarri with you (like I have one) to get it washed, and you give it to some guy to drive, and he wrecks it...I will be looking for you to pay, not him. How you deal with him is your problem, my deal was with you and only you.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/2/2003 12:03:16 AM

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I think I would have to agree with you P51B. But I don't even have a car. For me, it would be my bike. lol

I think the builder owes you a plane, the way I understand this issue.

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RE: Great PLanes Pitts SU2 Crash Pics - 10/2/2003 6:17:33 AM

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Lets get this entire thread up to speed! Heres the facts thus far.

1.)Yes, Bottom line they owe him a new aircraft and all! That has been the tone among everyone here.

2.)Shawn we all feel bad for all that has happened for your airplane! As you can tell we all stand for you. Don't let this go!

3.) Its a shame that the officer of the club that likes to post his thoughts here seen many times here viewing this post and not adding any replyies can't come to any resolution between the involved.

4.) Its been said that Shawn had slandered the club? Have you all read anything about the club on here that Shawn had said negatively about? I can't seem to find anything other that DAVE BP mentioning some hints here? Shawn has never mentioned this clubs name on here that I have seen.

Shawn if your still there let the courts sort this whole thing out! They will see the truth no question about it?

In addition, I ordered the new Great Planes Christen Eagle 1/3 scale ARF kinda almost identicle to the Pitts you had. This is what it looks like Its awesome! Later Mike

< Message edited by JetPilot29 -- 10/2/2003 6:29:02 AM >

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