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Turbine waiver? - 4/28/2013 10:42 PM   
jp1961


 

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From: metamora, MI, USA
Status: offline 		I'm trying to get my turbine waiver from the AMA and I have a .PDF file of turbine CD holders, but there is no way to contact them. I live north of Detroit MI and east of Flint. I have one turbine holder that is willing to watch me fly and sign the form, but I need a CD holder.

Thanks

Jeff

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/28/2013 10:57 PM   
Dr Honda



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Status: offline 		Welcome to the turbine world.

I'm sure a CD will chime in, and who is close to you.


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/28/2013 11:17 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,
Try the 1, 2, 3 process.
1: Check the Jet Event listing on this forum
2: Open the listing for "Michigan Jets"
3: Scroll down to the contact info and contact that individual.  Phone and e-mail are provided.

Art ARRO


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/28/2013 11:38 PM   
georbeckha



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Status: offline 		Hi Jeff,

I've talked with George Thomas at Michigan Jets many times and always found him to be a helpful stand up guy. He's the CD for that event. Him and his crew put on an amazing event at an amazing venue.  I think he goes by Jet_Wings here on RCU. He may have an idea of any Jet CD's for you close by (Or relatively so).

George


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/28/2013 11:44 PM   
joeflyer



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Status: offline 		Jeff,
 
I'm a member of the Flying Pilgrims in the Canton area.  There are 10 or 12 of us with turbine waivers and 3 or 4 CD's in the club who fly regularly.  Probably your best bet would be to stop by the field the next really nice Saturday or Sunday. 
http://www.flyingpilgrims.com
 
Joe


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 12:12 AM   
jp1961


 

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Status: offline 		Joe,

Thanks for the info. Sent an e-mail to Tom. It's kind of difficult to get two turbine waiver holders (one being a CD) to watch me fly. The flying club I belong to (Flying Aces) only has one turbine waiver holder. Not sure why the AMA requires two. For folks living in rural areas, this is kind of difficult.

Jeff

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 4:08 AM   
CARS II


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff

Not sure if you know this.

You are not the only one that has been in this kind of situation, someone from Guam ( I think ) was having the same problem, he wrote to the AMA and they came out with this.

In case of extenuating circumstances complying with the current application requirements the applicant
should submit a detailed written explanation. The AMA Safety Committee will review the information supplied
by the applicant. Any deviation from the current application process will require the majority vote of the AMA
Safety Committee.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 12:44 PM   
Dr Honda



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quote:

ORIGINAL: CARS II

Jeff

Not sure if you know this.

You are not the only one that has been in this kind of situation, someone from Guam ( I think ) was having the same problem, he wrote to the AMA and they came out with this.

In case of extenuating circumstances complying with the current application requirements the applicant
should submit a detailed written explanation. The AMA Safety Committee will review the information supplied
by the applicant. Any deviation from the current application process will require the majority vote of the AMA
Safety Committee.



Yes... but there is a difference from a guy living in a distant US territory... and a guy who just doesn't want to drive a little.



JP1961: I know it may be a pain... but that's the way they want it to be. (they don't want it to be too easy) Basically... They don't want someone who can simply write a check, to buy a big, heavy, fast, dangerous model, and fly it at their local park. I know that sounds crazy... but it would happen if the system wasn't in place, and self policing. Also... you are lucky... it's easier to get your waiver now than it use to be. As I understand... at one time, you had to basically do a ground school with the engine manufacturer, so you could learn how to safely run it.

I live close to Pitt PA (a major city) and I still had to drive to a club over an hour away, to meet with the CD to get my first signature. Then... I had to fly at a second field to get my second signature. In total... I spent 5 days flying at 2 fields (that wasn't my normal club) to get my sign-off. That was spread over 2 months.



OK... with that said... I get a feeling you have a poor attitude regarding RC Turbines. (if' I'm reading out of context, sorry) But... everyone here has done the same thing to get their waiver. So, complaining about having to go to a different field to get a second signature isn't going to work here. (not being harsh, just saying) But... you shoudln't think of it being a pain... look as it as... you GET to FLY at another field, and meet new people. (and get to FLY !!!) It's a hobby... have fun with it.



*****EDIT****

I just goggled JoeFlyers field... along with Flint and Detroit... and looking at your proximity to them... you are only an hour drive from his field. The invite has been open... so go there, and get your sign-off.


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 1:26 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		The AMA requires that one of the two individuals that sign your turbine waiver application be a turbine-waivered Contest Director (CD).  The CD is acting as an agent of the AMA in this process.  In addition, the waivered CD can only sign off applicants for the turbine category that they are approved for; ie, fixed wing or rotary wing (helis). 
The current process is far simpler than when I acquired my waiver , back in 2005, when a turbine ground school session and a written exam were required.  Also, there was a currency requirement, where the waiver holder had to log and document a number of turbine flights within a given period for their waiver renewal.
The waiver process has been established to ensure turbine safety operation and satisfies our liability insurance requuirements through the AMA. 
JP1961: Recommend that you contact the Flying Pilgrims club to setup a turbine waiver qualification session.  You should also download and review the AMA Turbine Safety Regs and waiver application form from the AMA website: www. modelaircraft.org. 

Art ARRO, AMA Leader Member/ CD
Turbine Waiver # 2570 (Fixed Wing)

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 4:48 PM   
CARS II


 

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Status: offline 		I'm with you Tony, most of us had to do some driving to get the turbine waiver complete.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 10:31 PM   
Jetmodeler


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,
I know the turbine waiver process is a bit of a pain, but its real intent is education. I would suggest you take up the offer and visit the folks down at Flying Pilgrims and fly with them, and even fly the waiver process while your there, get a waiver at the same time. Hanging out with experienced turbine modelers will help you avoid some of the silly mistakes (at least they are to us now) that can be made from lack of knowledge. Like Tony said, its a great opportunity to make some new friends with a common interest, turbines. I know what Tony went thru for his turbine waiver, but like he said we all make new friends along the way and now we look forward to flying with him again at one of the jet friendly fields within and hour or two from us.
Joe next time I'm up in Detriot area I'll have to look you up for an invite to fly there at the Flying Pilgrims.
Jim Hiller

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 4/30/2013 11:29 PM   
jp1961


 

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Status: offline 		Tony, you took my post WAY out of context. I don't have a poor attitude regarding obtaining a turbine waiver at all. Just running into problems contacted two waiver holders, with one being a CD. Sent an e-mail to the AMA and they didn't reply. They do post a national list of waiver holders, but no way of contacting them. I totally understand EVERYBODY had to go through the same process. In fact I've machined a turbine, however it only ran for a few seconds before the turbine wheel expanded and touched the nozzle guide vane housing.

Jeff

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:06 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		It took me 3 months to get my waiver because of this. There is only one active waiver cd in like 400 miles of me. I was on the brink of getting an alternative process until finally I told the local waiver guy I was going to get a process like that unless he contacted me back. So your situation is quite a bit better than mine.

The ama waiver process is full of problems, please make sure you complain to the AMA they need to change it. Further, like the recent thread about the guy who wont sign people off who have a fly eagle jets. Getting judged based on race, based on your opinions, based on your online posts etc.. The AMA leaves that all open to happen.

Complain to the AMA, and then drive the 1 hour and get it done. Then you wont care like me

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:14 AM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,
I suggest that you contact AMA by phone and ask for Ilona Maine as she is very familiar with the waiver process.  I'd ask her to put you in touch with a turbine CD in your area.  She may ask for your contact info to be forwarded to the CD, rather than provide you with their contact- due to privacy concerns.  Also, you can review the national list of waiver holders and select a local waivered CD. The listing is sorted by state and city.  There are  a few "speed bumps" in the process but Ilona at AMA HQ should smooth them over.  Good luck with all this.

Art ARRO

 

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:33 AM   
joeflyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jetmodeler
Joe next time I'm up in Detriot area I'll have to look you up for an invite to fly there at the Flying Pilgrims.
Jim Hiller

 
Jim,
 
You're welcome any time.  We're widening, lengthening, and repaving our runway sometime within the next month or so.  When we're done it should be the best jet friendly field in the state.
 
Joe



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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:50 AM   
Dreddi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda

quote:

ORIGINAL: CARS II

JP1961: I know it may be a pain... but that's the way they want it to be. (they don't want it to be too easy) Basically... They don't want someone who can simply write a check, to buy a big, heavy, fast, dangerous model, and fly it at their local park. I know that sounds crazy... but it would happen if the system wasn't in place, and self policing. Also... you are lucky... it's easier to get your waiver now than it use to be. As I understand... at one time, you had to basically do a ground school with the engine manufacturer, so you could learn how to safely run it.


As it is right now there is nothing that prevents someone from doing just that. If I wanted to take my jet to a park and fly it the AMA cant do anything to stop me. The AMA rules only apply when you're at an AMA charter club or event.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:52 AM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,
I did a bit of research since my last post and confirmed that there are nine (9) turbine waivered CDs in MI, mostly clustered around the Detroit area.  The roster is under AMA Doc # 510-M, which is accessible to AMA Members Only.  If you search AMA Doc # 510-K, you will find contact information (name, address, phone, e-mail) for AMA Accepted CDs for Rotary Wing Turbine Signoffs.  Several of these heli sign-off CDs can also sign-off fixed wing turbine pilots and you can contact them directly. 
Finally, if you wish to contact Ilona Maine at AMA HQ, her phone # is: 1-800-435-9262, x 251. Glad to help and let us know how you make out.

Art ARRO

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 1:28 AM   
causeitflies



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreddi



As it is right now there is nothing that prevents someone from doing just that. If I wanted to take my jet to a park and fly it the AMA cant do anything to stop me. The AMA rules only apply when you're at an AMA charter club or event.

The AMA rules apply wherever you fly. It's up to you to follow them.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 2:33 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		AMA rules are only "enforcable" at AMA fields ie turbine waiver required.
AMA rules only apply at non AMA fields only if you want AMA insurance coverage

If you dont care about AMA insurance, go fly a turbine jet wherever you want except an AMA field.. Given home insurance is primary coverage for most of us, then you could in theory fly just fine without a turbine waiver off a dirt road or cough at a park LOL.







quote:

ORIGINAL: causeitflies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreddi



As it is right now there is nothing that prevents someone from doing just that. If I wanted to take my jet to a park and fly it the AMA cant do anything to stop me. The AMA rules only apply when you're at an AMA charter club or event.

The AMA rules apply wherever you fly. It's up to you to follow them.



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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 2:46 AM   
joeflyer



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Status: offline 		This thread vhas gotten way off topic.


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 4:20 AM   
Dreddi



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Status: offline 		Haha that tends to happen in open, public forums.

I would also like to mention that I would in no way, shape, or form fly any of my model aircraft at an unsafe location or in an unsafe manner... Just so happens that the best places for me to fly are AMA sanctioned clubs.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 12:01 PM   
RCFlyerDan


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,
You need to be on a buddy box until you solo and are signed off.


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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 2:58 PM   
Art ARRO


 

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Status: offline 		essyou35,
Note that as an AMA member you are obligated to fly model aircraft under their Safety Code.  You signed on this when you joined AMA and it is valid for all renewals of your membership.  The Safety Code has specific wording regarding turbine-powered aircraft- see Section 2 (j) of the Safety Code and AMA Document # 510-A for further details on this. 
If you feel that the current regs are poor/unfair/etc then contact AMA HQ with your suggested changes.  These will be reviewed by the Turbine Sub-Committee of the Safety Comittee
, the Insurance Committee and forwarded to the Executive Council for ratification.  Safety is foremost for the continued operation of turbine powered model aircraft in the US. 

Art ARRO

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 5:45 PM   
CARS II


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreddi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda

JP1961: I know it may be a pain... but that's the way they want it to be. (they don't want it to be too easy) Basically... They don't want someone who can simply write a check, to buy a big, heavy, fast, dangerous model, and fly it at their local park. I know that sounds crazy... but it would happen if the system wasn't in place, and self policing. Also... you are lucky... it's easier to get your waiver now than it use to be. As I understand... at one time, you had to basically do a ground school with the engine manufacturer, so you could learn how to safely run it.


As it is right now there is nothing that prevents someone from doing just that. If I wanted to take my jet to a park and fly it the AMA cant do anything to stop me. The AMA rules only apply when you're at an AMA charter club or event.


Dreddi your quote should look like this one, I never said that from the quote you posted.

Thank you.

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RE: Turbine waiver? - 5/1/2013 6:23 PM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		I disagree, I can fly outside of AMA regs if I chose to not represent the AMA, or not be covered by AMA insurance. Lots of people used to do that when flying FPV, as the AMA would not allow it. Just because you are AMA, did not mean you could not fly FPV. It just mean you would not be protected by AMA.

I think we are meaning two different things, as I agree with you safety is #1. I am just saying the waiver process does nothing to ensure safety in most cases. Based on what I have seen from many waiver holders, I can attest that it does in fact do nothing.

Flying over hangars, breaking the speed limit and bragging, people who cant fly worth a darn crashing, people who cant follow simple instructions burning things up the list goes on. Of course then we have the true accidents. If the waiver did not exists, these things would stil happen in the same proportion they do today. So my point is all the waiver does is create a clique that excludes people or makes things harder on them in way the AMA did not intend. The ways I mentioned in my previous post.

IMO, the gentleman in question, can go fly his turbine off a dirt road somewhere, and just make sure his home owners covers him. Until he can get a waiver, then he can fly at an AMA field.

OH wait you say? Over a dirt road? Are you crazy? Excuse me, I have dirt roads in my areas with FAR safer fly over areas than the actual AMA fields, and that is common based on what I see on you tube.

Seems like AMA fields get surrounded by houses, and road, bike paths etc. I know areas with a dirt road that are miles of dirt fields in all directions. So dont go there acting like AMA fields are somehow safe just because they are AMA. The AMA doesnt come inspect fields for safety, because if they do then they are insane based on what I have seen.

In closing we all need to be safe to ensure we can continue to fly turbines, but being at an AMA field with an AMA waiver doesnt mean you are being safe at all. You can be far safer somewhere remote with no AMA in sight.


I always follwo AMA rules but IMO the waiver process is a "look good feel good" type thing and I compare it to an assualt weapons ban.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Art ARRO

essyou35,
Note that as an AMA member you are obligated to fly model aircraft under their Safety Code.  You signed on this when you joined AMA and it is valid for all renewals of your membership.  The Safety Code has specific wording regarding turbine-powered aircraft- see Section 2 (j) of the Safety Code and AMA Document # 510-A for further details on this. 
If you feel that the current regs are poor/unfair/etc then contact AMA HQ with your suggested changes.  These will be reviewed by the Turbine Sub-Committee of the Safety Comittee
, the Insurance Committee and forwarded to the Executive Council for ratification.  Safety is foremost for the continued operation of turbine powered model aircraft in the US. 

Art ARRO



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