How is scale racing in your area?

How is scale racing in your area?
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How is scale racing in your area? - 10/6/2003 7:32:20 AM

Tony Pacini

Posts: 262
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline

I really like scale racing. I got my start in pylon at a local SWRA race 13 years ago and have been at it ever since. I've flown Q500, QM40, Formula One, and F3D but warbird racing is still one of my favorite events.

Scale racing in my area has been in a steady decline since the late 1990s and now seems ready to disappear altogether. How come????? It should be gaining popularity, not losing it. Its diversity should attract more participants than the mainstream pylon events. Tons of great ARFs at reasonable prices should make it even more alluring. Big, little, fast, slow, 2-stroke, 4-stroke; it should appeal to just about everybody. This event is designed to be flown at the average club by sport pilots. Why isn't it successful on a national level? These are classy airplanes! You seldom hear a spectator or R/Cer at a Q500 or QM40 race say "wow, neat airplane.......I've always wanted one of those". They usually say something like, "um.......what is that?" Tell them it's a P-51 and watch the eyebrows go up in disbelief. How many sport pilots would aspire to flying QM40 or Q500 after seeing an event? Not many I suspect. Many probably have (or would build) a warbird that would qualify for a warbird race, though. Gosh........they could even double as sport planes! What gives???????????????

I believe we need a stable body of rules maintained by a governing board with a national vision. One breakout here, different breakout there, some with static judging, some without, muffler rule here, dB limit there, some allow trainers (T-34s, AT-6s, T-28s, etc.) while others say it's gotta leave the factory with guns or bombs. Too many variables! There's a reason that the AMA rulebook events have 2-year rules change cycles: it's so you can know what to expect from one race to the next! With a stable body of rules I believe that more racers would be willing to travel to out-of-town events. The SWRA attainted AMA Special Interest Group status several years ago but the event doesn't seem to be growing to or on a national level. Wouldn't it be great to see warbird racing grow into an AMA rulebook event? It doesn't seem possible at this rate.

What's your take on this?

Tony Pacini
Prescott Valley, AZ

Post #: 1

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/7/2003 1:54:43 PM

PJ_TankPilot

Posts: 396
Joined: 1/16/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Good timing. SpeedWorld has it's annual warbird race this month.

I agree with what you say, but I can think of several problems to be solved:

1) The current AMA SIG, the SWRA seems to have no interest in making their format a national affair. If this is true, a new organization would have to be formed. How about WRAP (Warbird Racing Association for Pilots)

2) I think a major problem is the word 'scale'. The world of R/C has changed a lot recently. What percent of models flying at your field today are ARFs ? The words 'warbird' and 'racing' will get peoples attention. The word 'scale' can turn them off. When I describe the SWRA race format to someone, the scale judging is not greeted with enthusiasm.

3) To make this a national affair quickly, you would need to find out what is going on around the country and set the rules to accommodate what is currently working. I believe there is a lot of non-sanctioned racing going on with unique rules.

4) To get maximum participation, rules must be simple and favor the sport racer. We all know about rule manipulation by people who race to win, not to have fun. Who writes the rules ?

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 2

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/8/2003 2:21:10 AM

Tony Pacini

Posts: 262
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline

PJ,

You and I both know that the SWRA has no interest in going national (even though it's their responsibility). The vision of the original founders is long gone. I don't even think they have enough paid members to be legally considered a SIG anymore. I wouldn't even think of starting another organization, though. I'd help to revamp the existing one if the right people would go away.

Yes, times have changed...........so many great ARFs, so little interest in scale judging (especially after they started doing it outside at night). It used to be a fun social event. SAM guys have done away with static judging altogether and it doesn't seem to have hurt the event; most airframes seemed pretty scale (outline wise). It's kind of like QM40 vs F1; even though the static judging is gone, people still build really nice airplanes (some even with scale color schemes).

Look at b10's post on the NMPRA forum: seems that there are many different events just in California. It would be tough to consolidate them. I think we know enough about what DOESN'T work that it shouldn't be too tough to tweak the existing SWRA rules into a more popular format.

I also agree that it's got to be simple and favor the sport racer without the manipulation we've seen in the past. Bronze for the entry level pilots, Silver for the masses, Gold for the serious pilots. I can live with the Gold breakout if it officially comes from the AMA (as it has for the last few years) but the CDs need to push for something more reasonable (1:30 or lower). Our same district VP has granted 1:30 for the SAM club for the last 2 years yet our local group (with fewer course layout issues) cling to the 1:38 like it's gospel. It's just a line in the sand that needs to be erased and moved to reflect advances in ability and technology.

See ya Saturday at the Speedworld APRA race?

Tony

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 3

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/8/2003 4:28:33 AM

Mluvara

Posts: 1425
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Status: offline

Hi Tony,

It always seems that the subject of rules is a constant question and topic that comes up amongst clubs. I know that we (when I say we, it's clubs within a 100 or so mile radius) have tried to get in sync with other clubs that are beyond that radius as far as racing goes so that people could travel to one another's races seamlessly. Looking at the big picture, things are way too dilluted right now with races, and this is obviously a big part of the problem. I can count on two hands the number of racing rules out there within traveling distance. I can go race Q500, QM40, 1/2A, T-34, Warbirds in the Bay Area, Lodi, Sacramento, .25 size AT-6's, etc. Provides a lot of choices, yes? But also problems that many have alluded to with having different planes for all sets of rules and the need for quite the number of airframes. Some clubs stick with a set of rules and form club a series. Some decide to make changes for one reason or another. As one changes geography, the flying site may limit the type of planes flown. With flying sites so scarse now adays, that adds to the mix. I have to drive 2 1/2 hours just to fly a giant scale racer.

I for one would like to see a stable rules body whereas there are a lot of competitors from different areas that show up at races and have a good time. But, alas, it never seems to happen. It's always fun to see what they've been secretly working on when they arrive to race.

As far as warbird racing, I too don't like the breakout implemented at many race sites by AMA and think that the scale points judging is overly critical. I do feel that the "gummy" airplanes, e.g. where one has stretched their dimensions out so much that the plane is almost beyond recognition, are not at the intent and spirit of the rules. I took this into consideration and built my Tsunami to fall well within the guidelines for that reason.

But, then there's those that want fame, glory, and prizes with a huge race series, and those that come out to just have fun on weekends. Having both ends of the spectrum here doesn't always provide a good match up. One ends up with a million dollar plane and the other with a stand-off scale plane that is out for fun. I go to the races to have fun, but do spend a fair amount of money in doing so, like many. The goal is to try and bring the plane home and have a fun day of racing at the same time(sometimes it doesn't go that way!). Anything more is a bonus.

But, where do we draw the lines with planes? Limit the type of models? Open it up where Cubs and aircraft without bombs can race? The rules are the hard part and the part that makes or breaks a race. Duane Gall's Formula sport class is interesting because the planes are limited. There's only so many that have been built in full scale and their dimensions are really close because they are limited by pilot size, engine, and wing area to begin with. Falling along the same lines, the USRA/GSARA Formula 1 giant scale racing class is the most popular, so maybe he they are onto something with the rules proposal... At a giant scale F1 race, 5 different airframes and motor combinations will all be within the top five at any given time. Conversely, the wing area or span rule we see in warbird racing doesn't always make it fair, but that's part of the game (choosing an airplane per the rules), isn't it?

Anyways, I'm still not sure about how to make everyone happily co-exist. It's like politics. Everyone has their own 2 cents and ideas. Maybe one day the right formula with be created and a scale rulebook event will become a reality.

Michael

< Message edited by Mluvara -- 10/8/2003 4:31:43 AM >

_____________________________

Michael Luvara
RCATS - http://www.rcatsystems.com
Luvara Air Racing - http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 4

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/8/2003 5:49:56 AM

Tony Pacini

Posts: 262
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Michael,

The SWRA formula allows for many different engine/airframe combinations; most aircraft raced at the club level would be legal in an SWRA race and would be competitive in one of the three classes. Diversity encourages participation and this event could appeal to everyone. We need to agree on a race format. Sure, the NE-1 ("Cub"

is a fringe aircraft that probably doesn't belong.........but under SWRA rules it is legal. I understand why most would want it outlawed. Why ban T-34s, AT-6s, T-28s, etc.? Many of these "trainer" aircraft have actually raced at Reno! It seems that this stuff only gets outlawed when it's successful (and that's the part that bothers me). We'll never get complete agreement about any rules but a standardized body that wasn't subject to change at the drop of a hat would be a step in the right direction. In order to appeal to the masses this event must allow a variety of ARFs and sport aircraft as well as purpose-built birds like your Tsunami.

Tony

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 5

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/8/2003 7:27:37 AM

Mluvara

Posts: 1425
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Status: offline

Tony,

I agree that a variety is good. Like you said, the rules need to be consistent and enforced like so, along with being on a widely-accepted format like Q500 and such. This seems to be the problem with a lot of racing leagues. Personally, I like to race, so I will look in the rules for what I feel is the fastest too. Hmm.. A Lancair raced at Reno!

Michael

_____________________________

Michael Luvara
RCATS - http://www.rcatsystems.com
Luvara Air Racing - http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 6

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/8/2003 7:54:26 AM

Tony Pacini

Posts: 262
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Michael,

It doesn't matter what is being raced ( be it turtles or sailboats) - some will take a casual approach (which is fine) and some will take a more serious approach (which should also be fine). Both should be allowed. Those who make a serious effort will likely be rewarded more than those who don't. All should have fun, though, because that's what it's all about. Disqualifying those who figure out how to win shouldn't be part of the equation.

The SWRA format (3 classes) is very workable as far as aircraft qualifications goes. The problem seems to be the actual racing format: muffler, no muffler, dB limit, no dB limit, 1:38 breakout, 1:30 breakout, no breakout, static judging, no static judging, trainers vs. no trainers, etc. You get the drift. Everyone's so busy feathering their nest that they don't realize what kind of damage has been done by going off on all these tangents. If everyone compromised just a little bit and agreed to a standardized set of rules then we'd have access to a number of races all over the country (just like Q500 and QM40). Here's what we're up against, though: look at AMA 424 (sport quickie).............it's a rulebook event that nobody flies.....................because every part of the country has their own idea for how this entry-level event should be run.

Tony

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 7

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/10/2003 10:12:02 PM

T34RACING

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Status: offline

When I was catching up on my RC Universe threads, I could not help but laugh a little bit when I read xxxx Comment on the dilution of rules and events that are held in the South bay and Central California. As a promoter and event coordinator of two different types of racing, I take it offensive when he comments on things that are not working but in everyone elses eyes they are. I know the Sacramento guys probably have the same feeling that I have. The SAM & Red Barons clubs run a huge event and also run a "class act" show. I would feel that if someone is out saying there are problems with the races, that he don't refer to all the races that are working. The only ones that are not working are the ones held in conjunction with him. I am not attacking xxxx but would like to understand the reasoning for him comments when he is a sole example of dilution of rules.

In the bay area & Central California, I have been running races now for seven years with the same set of rules and in the beginning years we revise them to tighten rules or touch up on points that have been missed. We made it a point to let everyone know the rules are provisional based on the fact that things are missed. But a year or two later, the rules where set. After seven years of racing, you decide to take the club that you are Vice President of and seperate from everyone making your own set of rules for everything. Now to me, this means you have taken a set of rules that everyone has built to and been accostomed to and change it to allow your designed aircraft to race and make another class that has failed in the past. To me this was uncalled for and that you dilluted the class by either making racers not participate in your club event or second build another aircraft solely for the purpose of your race. You can't say I didn't participate, because I did. But the factors you have to think about is that there were many loopholes in your rules that you saw at the race. That is why I was able to run a J-3 cub in your stock class. Sometimes instead of making another set of rules, it is best to go with what works. Another thing that I have done in the past, is listen to the racers. You have to seperate yourself as a promoter and take the notes from the racers and do what they want. Don't make a set of rules just because you don't like a club or a individual.

quote:

"I for one would like to see a stable rules body whereas there are a lot of competitors from different areas that show up at races and have a good time. But, alas, it never seems to happen. It's always fun to see what they've been secretly working on when they arrive to race. "

The T-34 Triangle Series Races has been a stable set of rules whereas there are a lot of competitors from all different areas that travel to the races in search of winning the Championships each and every year. This past year, I had a gentleman that traveled for each race from Colorado to California just to participate. I have two other guys that traveled from Nevada ( Reno and Las Vegas ) to fly. I have people in california traveling over 400 miles to fly and race also. So to me that tells me that something is right . Over the past couple of years, we have had 4-5 race series each year and at the end of the year, the champions are rewarded with lots of prizes along with all the other winners in individual races. On average, we had about 40 pilots per race and a maximum of 51 at a individual race. The most I have had at a individual race was 61 pilots two years ago.

quote:

"As far as warbird racing, I too don't like the breakout implemented at many race sites by AMA and think that the scale points judging is overly critical. I do feel that the "gummy" airplanes, e.g. where one has stretched their dimensions out so much that the plane is almost beyond recognition, are not at the intent and spirit of the rules. I took this into consideration and built my Tsunami to fall well within the guidelines for that reason. "

Depending on the classes held, it all depends on how you set the rules to determine breakouts. Before xxxx involved himself between AMA and the SAM clubs, there were no breakout times. I don't know the full details of the situation, but I know SAM was not to happy. Also as far as the aircraft judging, go to a SAM or Red Baron race. They are no advantages to the aircraft there. Stretch the wing a little if you want. The fact is you have to fly around the pylons and finish to win. If it is as bad as you say, they will not allow the aircraft.

quote:

But, then there's those that want fame, glory, and prizes with a huge race series, and those that come out to just have fun on weekends. Having both ends of the spectrum here doesn't always provide a good match up. One ends up with a million dollar plane and the other with a stand-off scale plane that is out for fun. I go to the races to have fun, but do spend a fair amount of money in doing so, like many. The goal is to try and bring the plane home and have a fun day of racing at the same time(sometimes it doesn't go that way!). Anything more is a bonus.

The fame, the glory and prizes are bonuses that are associated with the events. In some instances, many clubs can't afford to buy numerous prizes for the pilots so that is where sponsorship is appreciated. Also, the promoters of races need to do there homework and make things happen. The prizes draw people to the races adn raffles are given to helpers for their dedication. Also public raffles are a catch for spectators and people who are interested in taken a chance to maybe get into the racing aspect or the hobby.

quote:

"But, where do we draw the lines with planes? Limit the type of models? Open it up where Cubs and aircraft without bombs can race? The rules are the hard part and the part that makes or breaks a race. Anyways, I'm still not sure about how to make everyone happily co-exist. It's like politics. Everyone has their own 2 cents and ideas. Maybe one day the right formula with be created and a scale rulebook event will become a reality. "

The lines are drawn in the rules. Specific rules are the key to competitive races and having fun. As far as making everyone happy, talk to the pilots and go with what works. Scale is never going to coincide with racing. If it were scale, I wouldn't be racing. I would be at the Scale Masters. If it looks like a P-51, then its a P-51.

There are politics in racing, but there doesn't have to be. I deal with very little politics in most cases because everything is defined and precedures are documented. If it is outside of those its not allowed. Plain and simple.

< Message edited by T34RACING -- 10/11/2003 2:14:39 PM >

_____________________________

KEVIN NORRED,
T-34 TRIANGLE SERIES COORDINATOR

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 8

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/11/2003 3:04:24 AM

Tony Pacini

Posts: 262
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Kevin,

Great post.........you're obviously well-informed about these issues.

I've gone to the SAM race every year for the last 3 years and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's the only warbird racing I've done during that time period (I haven't bothered racing locally due to the 1:38 Gold breakout).

The SAM race has shown me that warbird racing can be successful but I wonder why it isn't doing better nationally. We need a unified body of rules for the event to succeed on a national level.The SAM club has changed the rules enough to force us to rebuild each year for the last 2 years (we're currently waiting for them to outlaw what we raced last month). I can't help but think that these constant changes are hurting the event as a whole. It happens here on the local level, too (even with the AMA-recognized Special Interest Group SWRA).

The breakout thing at SAM was inevitable; the course didn't meet AMA's guidelines and thus was subject to a conditional waiver by AMA District VP. The "condition" was a Gold breakout. I still don't like it but it's easier to swallow when it comes from them AMA than when it comes from the local CDs.

The scale judging thing doesn't bother me either way. I'd rather win the event on the race course but understand why some feel it necessary. Scale outline needs to be monitored or you never know what will show up. Doing away with scale judging doesn't seem to have hurt the SAM race (at least as far as participation goes). One of the Arizona CDs is going to try a no-scale-judging event in March because he enjoys the SAM format.

Aircraft eligibility seems to be the biggest issue. I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to the Cub (NE-1) thing..........I campaigned one for a year or so and helped the rest of the Arizona gang get set up with cores, cowls, etc. They (we) built all the Cubs in protest to the local CDs requiring mufflers for 4-strokes (so we showed up with LOUDER NELSONS). They had the planes lying around, knew how much a certain SAM CD disliked them, and you can figure out the rest of the story (!). What I DON'T understand is requiring guns or bombs (doing away with trainers). Lots of AT-6s, T-34's, T-28's etc. have run at Reno and therefore should be eligible. SAM outlawed trainers because they got spanked by a bunch of T-34s. Seems kind of silly, doesn't it?

Thanks for your post.....it's evident that you put a lot of thought into this.

Tony Pacini
Prescott Valley, AZ

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 9

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/11/2003 3:49:49 AM

T34RACING

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Status: offline

Thanks T-pacini,

Unfortunately, I was unable to make it to the last race so I missed what was there.

Some of the reasons why most racing doesn't do well is ( I don't want to insult anyone ) is due to lack of promotion and help. In order to make something happen and happen big, you have to draw pilots, spectators and the most important people, the helpers. Without helpers, I am sorry but you will not have a great race. Even though you may have a race with say 5-10 pilots total, if the race is flawless and organized, those 5-10 people will bring another 2-3 people and then you have 20-30 people and so on. Promotion is the key.

Like myself and the Sacramento Guys, they promote and run great events in return you have the big events. Homework pays off. Also, don't forget the teamwork that is done. Most people don't realize the work, especially AMA paperwork and numerous phone calls that it takes to even put on a race. Every promoter big and small deserves a pat on the back. I have never talked bad about any event. I have always told the person in charge what a great job they have done. If there is something that I see that maybe was unpleasant or needed attention, instead of broadcasting it, I would suggest it. The Directors are always running the race and sometimes to busy to see the little things. The little things are what will kill a event sometimes. A perfect example would be Safety.

As far as rule changes and outlawing aircraft, I can't highlight on the subject because I wasn't there. My input as a subject in general would be that all of us are racers and unless specified, we will take everything to the limits. You are not cheating unless it is specified, but in order to keep things legal and to a even the playing field for others, things may change from time to time. I will be totally honest with you since I am a perfect case, I hate to see cubs, T-34s and any aircraft that realistically would not have a chance against maybe a mustang racing against each other in a warbird race. But if the rules don't say anything, I am going to make everything beneficial for myself. I ran a cub in stock for the fact that I had the smallest( but legal to the rules) airplane with the best powerplant on the front. If I didn't take the rules and use them to my advantage, I wouldn't be a racer.

As far as the breakout times, I have my opinion on them, but you have to remember everyone is the same. It is a safety issue and there is no way around them. (Just remember that having a race with a breakout is better than no race at all.) You break it, your out. I ran a stock World Mustang with a stock O.S. 61 FX in Bronze and broke out everytime. The thing is, my flying style is different and I fly the tops of the pylons. I know next time to put a performance pipe on it and fly Silver and guaranteed to do real well. An average person with the same set-up would maybe be competitive in the Bronze. It just depends. I have all types of aircraft that one would be legal for gold, but I have a slight problem backing off. But just remember like in drag racing, if you want to go faster, you move to another class. Bracket racing in drag cars is just as competitive as the top Fuelers. Just a big difference in price.

AS for the scale judging, my pops and I built a old P-63 kit and put a YS. 120 on it for a SWRA race a few years ago. The kit was done up in scale colors and was stand-off scale. We wound up taking 10th in scale judging and flew everyheat winning them only taking 4th place overall I believe. The thing that sucked was we raced our hearts out .Our airplane was bigger than everyone else in wing area and wingspan. But because our doors, gear, control clevises were not painted correctly and that the spinner was wrong, we got dinged. NOt cool.

T-28's , T-34's Pt-26's and At-6's are very fast for us in these classes and have a lot of advantages over say a corsair, bearcat and mustang. One is that the aspect ratio on the trainers is to die for. We race the Pt-26's with ducted fan motors and they are tough to beat. They have the power, the weight and also the nice turning. Races are not always won on the striaght aways. They are won in the turns. That is one of the reasons why I see these aircraft outlawed. I have all of them except T-28. I raced all of them in Warbirds. In my series of Warbird races, most of everything is legal. I will find a way to beat you if you show up with one. Myself and about 20 others will smile if we are beat, and then go home and start something else to win. That is why we are RACERS!!!!!

_____________________________

KEVIN NORRED,
T-34 TRIANGLE SERIES COORDINATOR

(in reply to Tony Pacini)

Post #: 10

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/11/2003 3:59:15 AM

T34RACING

Posts: 232
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Status: offline

The reason also, I forgot to mention is one reason that there are many rules in various areas is that not all people are aware that other similar events are out there. If a club decides to have a warbird race, if that information is not available to the public, they begin to draft their own version. I think "PylonWorld" has done a terrific job in trying to promote racing and to standardize rules, but this is just one site. I think if it was possible, then maybe we could use "pylonworld" as a rules headquarters. But it is going to take effort from not only the promoters, but the pilots too. Also, the easier things are done, the better. No politics.

NMPRA is the site for AMA racing. That is what we need for everything else. SWRA is not gong to post a non-scale event rules on their site because that defeats their purpose. PylonWorld is a general look at everything. Maybe Don would be Generous in lending out his site for everyone? I am not voluntering for anything though........No time.

Man, I am in the mood to go race now.......My mind is all fired up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ready turn!!!!!

_____________________________

KEVIN NORRED,
T-34 TRIANGLE SERIES COORDINATOR

(in reply to T34RACING)

Post #: 11

RE: How is scale racing in your area? - 10/11/2003 7:00:33 AM