RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of accidental loss of model. A condition of Club Membership? AMA?  
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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> The Clubhouse >> RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of accidental loss of model. A condition of Club Membership? AMA?
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[Poll]

"No Fault" liability in the event of accidental loss of model. A condition of Club Membership? AMA?
A condition of Club Membership should require a signed a waiver.
  46% (116)
No, an accidental loss of model neccessitates full reimbursement.
  6% (17)
Leave things the way they are now- This is a non-issue
  16% (41)
AMA/IMAA should require a signed waiver as conditional membership
  16% (41)
No AMA/IMAA involment is required.
  5% (13)
I would sign a waiver but would not honor it.
  2% (6)
I would fly elsewhere if such a waiver was required.
  6% (16)


Total Votes : 250
(last vote on : 1/17/2006 3:04:23 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 2:03:40 AM   
branded



Posts: 984
Joined: 7/16/2002
From: cary, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Jon, you do not "retrieve" your pin. Pins are not supplied to you by the club, you bring your own clothes pin.

When you want to fly you put a clothes pin over the frequency you want to fly on.
The pin is not required to have a channel number or frequency marking on it. A plain clothes pin is acceptable.

When you finish flying, you take your pin off the frequency number, and place your transmitter in the impound.

When you're flying, there's no pin in your posession.

If your pin is removed, knocked off the board, or moved by mistake, another person can put his pin in its place and turm on his transmitter fully believing that the channel is unoccupied.

The whole system is based on whether or not a pin is placed over the appropriate channel number.

< Message edited by branded -- 10/20/2003 2:05:48 AM >

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 226

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 2:18:09 AM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1955
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: branded

Jon, you do not "retrieve" your pin. Pins are not supplied to you by the club, you bring your own clothes pin.

When you want to fly you put a clothes pin over the frequency you want to fly on.
The pin is not required to have a channel number or frequency marking on it. A plain clothes pin is acceptable.

When you finish flying, you take your pin off the frequency number, and place your transmitter in the impound.

When you're flying, there's no pin in your posession.

If your pin is removed, knocked off the board, or moved by mistake, another person can put his pin in its place and turm on his transmitter fully believing that the channel is unoccupied.

The whole system is based on whether or not a pin is placed over the appropriate channel number.

Wow, that is definately different. I've flown for over 10 years, many events and many different clubs but have not ran across that exact system. A similar system that I just flew at put on by the DCRC club (Andy Kane) is worked like this. You bring your transmitter to impound (no one is officially working impound). When you are ready to fly, you go to impound, check the frequency board. The frequency board has a list of channels with corresponding numbered pins. If your frequency is clear then you take your channel #'d pin and put it on your trans. Grab a 'blank' clothes pin and pin your ama card in the slot for your channel then you go fly. After flying you bring your transmitter back to the impound, get your ama card and put the pin back on the board. In this way you can clearly see what frequencies are being used. Looking at your impound board using this method it would appear that all frequencies except 14, 21 ,40 or 41 (can't tell), 52 and 60 are currently in use. In the way you've described it, I would myself be very concerned about a mishap. Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 227

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 2:57:01 AM   
augiep38



Posts: 395
Joined: 2/7/2002
From: Charles Town, WV, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: branded

Jon, you do not "retrieve" your pin. Pins are not supplied to you by the club, you bring your own clothes pin.

When you want to fly you put a clothes pin over the frequency you want to fly on.
The pin is not required to have a channel number or frequency marking on it. A plain clothes pin is acceptable.

When you finish flying, you take your pin off the frequency number, and place your transmitter in the impound.

When you're flying, there's no pin in your posession.

If your pin is removed, knocked off the board, or moved by mistake, another person can put his pin in its place and turm on his transmitter fully believing that the channel is unoccupied.

The whole system is based on whether or not a pin is placed over the appropriate channel number.


I would definately re-think that system!!

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 228

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 3:09:26 AM   
branded



Posts: 984
Joined: 7/16/2002
From: cary, IL, USA
Status: offline 		This system is not unique to us. I flew in Virginia at the TRC club in Chesapeake. They had exactly the same system in place.
I know of at least two other clubs in Chicagoland that use this system.

The system may not be the greatest, but it resolves the missing pin dillema, and that's the trade-off.

The club doesn't have to track down missing frequncy pins.

I suspect that there are many more clubs that use this system than some of you are aware of.

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 229

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 3:11:20 AM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1955
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		Yesterday and today I flew some demo flights along with regular flying at a Hot Air Balloon Festival http://www.historiclongbranch.com/balloonfest/balloon.htm Being that we were not flying at a regular club site, The frequency control system was basic but very similar to a lot of clubs that I've flown at. There was a cord stretched with numbered clothes pins corresponding to the air frequencies of course. When you were ready to fly you simply walked up to the 'board' and checked to see if the pin for the channel was missing. If it was, then it was in use. If not, you get the pin and put it on your transmitter and go fly. If the pins not there, then someone is using it. When your thru flying you take the pin back to the board and put it back in it's place, 11 12 13. If a frequency was being used it is extremely easy to tell, ie, 11 12 14 15 16 etc. Obviously pin 13 is missing. All that is reguired is for everyone to be properly trained to walk to the pin board and get the pin before flying then put it back. If it's missing, then ask the modelers who is on channel '13' etc. Very simple and effective. If you don't have a pin, then don't turn on ........... Jon

edit***
I've flown at many clubs where you leave your ama card but you always take the pin to put on your transmitter too. I think that I'd rather track down missing pins than worry about someone messing up the freq board as has been suggested. I can personally track down whether someone has my pin or if it's missing. I can and have communicated among the members flying that pin #.. is missing and we need to be sure and watch for it today and find out who has it. That is where leaving your ama card on the board when you take the pin comes in very handy :^)

< Message edited by jonkoppisch -- 10/19/2003 10:19:07 PM >

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to jonkoppisch)
       Post #: 230

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 3:59:24 PM   
FLYBOY



Posts: 8692
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Status: offline 		Branded, I have also seen that particular system at clubs, but it has lots of room for error, and should be brought up at a meeting. If the club has only 1 set of pins, (clips, clothes pins or what ever) on the board and you walk up and take that pin and put in your ama card, and the rule states you do not turn on unless you have said pin, then chances of a shoot down are greatly reduced.

Like you said, with your system, if you place a clip over your freq, and the wind blows it off, or someone sticking one on the freq next to it nocks it off, or a multitude of other things happen, and someone else walks up and puts their pin on the now empty slot and turns on, your plane is toast. The system is flawed, and if it were my club, I would be for pushing very hard to get it changed to a system like I first described so someone couldn't inadvertanly shoot me down if my clip were to dissapear.

Not everyone flys huge dollar planes, but even the little planes take time and effort to build and fix. Why use a system that could lead to the destruction of a plane because of so many different causes nocking the clip off the board. The system is flawed and should be changed so you don't have to worry about shoot downs. Maybe that is why it is so cut and dry for the rest of us. Our systems have a lot less chance of a mistake happening.

_____________________________

Fly it till the wings come off.

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 231

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 4:16:29 PM   
branded



Posts: 984
Joined: 7/16/2002
From: cary, IL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLYBOY

Branded, I have also seen that particular system at clubs, but it has lots of room for error, and should be brought up at a meeting. If the club has only 1 set of pins, (clips, clothes pins or what ever) on the board and you walk up and take that pin and put in your ama card, and the rule states you do not turn on unless you have said pin, then chances of a shoot down are greatly reduced.

Like you said, with your system, if you place a clip over your freq, and the wind blows it off, or someone sticking one on the freq next to it nocks it off, or a multitude of other things happen, and someone else walks up and puts their pin on the now empty slot and turns on, your plane is toast. The system is flawed, and if it were my club, I would be for pushing very hard to get it changed to a system like I first described so someone couldn't inadvertanly shoot me down if my clip were to dissapear.

Not everyone flys huge dollar planes, but even the little planes take time and effort to build and fix. Why use a system that could lead to the destruction of a plane because of so many different causes nocking the clip off the board. The system is flawed and should be changed so you don't have to worry about shoot downs. Maybe that is why it is so cut and dry for the rest of us. Our systems have a lot less chance of a mistake happening.


Agreed, the system is less than perfect, but unfortunately the only one that's reasonably simple to manage, particularly at club fields that use public lands.

At these fields anyone with an AMA card can show up and use the field. It's not easily controlled. Pins disappear too often.

Like it or not, this is the system that's most managable under our circumstances.

(in reply to FLYBOY)
       Post #: 232

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 4:25:41 PM   
FLYBOY



Posts: 8692
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Status: offline 		Well, what do you do when a guy shows up and doesn't have a pin?

Heres one that you can do that doesn't take much to change to make what you have work. Leave the slots for the ama cards, but build a clip that when the guy takes the pin, it locks his ama card into the slot. When he comes back and re-inserts the pin, the ama card is freed and he can take it. You have only 1 clip that way, and if someone leaves with it, their ama card is still there so you know who took it.

You can roll over and say your system is the only one that will work and continue to be very very suseptable to shootdowns, or you can push to change it to a system that is known to work and have a lot less shootdowns.

I sure wouldn't want your system as it is now. Too much room for error.

The cost of changing it to something that works is about 1/10th the cost of the first plane it would save, and from what you are saying, it sounds like you have a problem with shootdowns. In the two clubs I have flown at, I haven't seen a shootdown in over 10 years.

Maybe it is time to make a change for the better. The plane you save, could be your own.

_____________________________

Fly it till the wings come off.

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 233

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 5:24:33 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6865
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLYBOY
Maybe it is time to make a change for the better. The plane you save, could be your own.


... and the life you save could be your best friend's.

BTW, the system described in Flyboy's post (put card up and take pin down) not only allows you to know who took the pin (so that you can arrange for it's return, or disposal if you are creating a replacement pin) - it also substantially increases the safety factor by being dual-redundancy - if the pin is there for you to take, but the someone's card is up too, you don't fly until you check with them to ask if they forgot to take the pin, or forgot to take theior card down. It makes it more likely that you have to screw up on TWO counts before causing a problem. This system has been in use very successfully in the SCCMAS club for many years.

There again, I guess that it's just easier for some folk to want to tell the victim of a shoot-down that he's S.O.L, than to do something useful like institute a safer frequency control system that could save not just airplanes, but lives too.

I wonder what a court would do if there was a shootdown that injured someone, and it was shown that the club knew that there was a much safer frequency control system available, but they decided not to use it because they couldn't be bothered dealing with the occasional missing pin...

Gordon

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

(in reply to FLYBOY)
       Post #: 234

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 5:34:59 PM   
branded



Posts: 984
Joined: 7/16/2002
From: cary, IL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc


There again, I guess that it's just easier for some folk to want to tell the victim of a shoot-down that he's S.O.L, than to do something useful like institute a safer frequency control system that could save not just airplanes, but lives too.

I wonder what a court would do if there was a shootdown that injured someone, and it was shown that the club knew that there was a much safer frequency control system available, but they decided not to use it because they couldn't be bothered dealing with the occasional missing pin...

Gordon



Sarcasm alert!
Oh brother........And so you figure these systems haven't been put in place for a reason. I guess we're just too dumb to figure out anything better, eh?

Give it a rest already! The system I described is the only managable system at a public field where transient non-members use the facility and fly.
Who, whom is going to manage the "pins" at a public field?

I've started another thread whereby you can bestow upon the rest of us your intuitive, 'matter of fact', 'everyone should know this', 'how dumb can they be?', err, wisdom.

Care to offer up something constructive? Do it there.

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 235

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 5:46:58 PM   
sideshow



Posts: 2521
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Pleasanton, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: branded
......I guess we're just too dumb to figure out anything better.....





_____________________________

Bob Convery

(in reply to branded)
       Post #: 236

RE: "No Fault" liability in the event of acci... - 10/20/2003 5:49:24 PM   
FLYBOY



Posts: 8692
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Missoula, MT, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: branded


Sarcasm alert!

Give it a rest already! The system I described is the only managable system at a public field where transient non-members use the facility and fly.
Who, whom is going to manage the "pins" at a public field?



Branded, that is bull and you know it. Many systems work. We have transient flyers all the time.

What do you do when a transient shows up and doesn't have a pin to cover a freq?

It is not the only managable system. It may be the only system your club chose to use, but you yourself described the flaws in it.

If you want to keep flying with a freq control system that has so many hole in it, go for it, but please quit whining about the inevitable shoot downs caused by it if you don't want to change it for one that doesn't offer the ho