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Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 2:27:47 AM   
BMatthews



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In scanning down the topics here I don't see much mention of any combat. So I thought it was high time to bring up the Sport of Kings.

To those that have flown combat no explanation will serve to describe the feeling in the heat of battle. The split second decisions and hair raising moments as you bump elbows, knees and chests with your opponent all the while projecting your soul out to the radius of known space as delineated by the length of your lines. The trust placed in your own model and the handle gripped in your palm as you scan the skies for your opponent while flying your own model on instincts. The sudden Kendo like sword fight of flashing lines in the sun as the lines cross and open and re-cross again. Fighting to stay free but all the while cursing the need to break off the pursuit. The sudden reversal of spirit when it becomes YOUR turn to defend. The sinking feeling when you realize the fellow next to you has your number and there is just no place to hide. The sudden sag of spirit as the engines go silent and you stand there lines limp and soul drained. Sweat pouring off your brow, arms and legs shaking from a mix exuberance and exhaustion.

Our local flavour of combat tends to have centered around a 15 sized sort of FAI class over the years. Oh sure, a few fly the open 35 sized stuff but for the most part it's been 15 sized models. A few years back the formula tightened up to a classic British theme that restricted the engines to diesels and a spec prop to hold the speeds down a little and encourage more participation. I went from my bladder fed Fox 15's to the diesels for a while and still have a couple of models and engines but the need for almost constant building and repairing chases me away now and then only to return for a while every couple of years. It's like a drug......

So are there any other junkies out there?


_____________________________

Bruce-
Proudly wasting balsa since 1965.

Free Flighters go that extra mile........
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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 3:13:11 AM   
William Robison



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Bruce:

Haven't flown combat since "Open 35" was the only combat there was. I'm afraid that would be faster than I like, now.

How about old style Rat Racing?

Bill.

PS: Yep, this plane is ready to go. wr.

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_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 3:49:06 AM   
Bigiron13



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Most of the feelings in the original post is fairly accurate, but the sinking, exasperation following the KERWHUMP overhead accompanied by falling foam and balsa chips like snow . And the dread of having to go build another model after only a few flights on the last one.
no, I don't think that I want to return.

Bigiron

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 4:02:33 AM   
BMatthews



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I never DID have the nerves and reflexes for fast combat. The only times I flew a modern fast was when a buddy let me try one of his after the Bladder Grabber was over. I had given the "Dreaded Canadian Contingent" (their semi official name given them by some of the Yankee hoards, Howard Rush I believe, in Washington state. They showed up with a BIG banner proclaiming their title the following time) some technical help with airfoil selection and their models were enhanced beyond the state of the art of the time. Nothing fancy, I just suggested they use the Eppler 474 instead of the Pollywog looking Granderson thing they had at the time. High speed stalls were eliminated and they were turning tighter and with less speed loss than the others of the day.

Out of gratitude, or revenge.... I've never figured out which.... they stuck a handle in my hands and told me to stand there until the noise started.... The lap speeds were so low that I HAD to do some figure 8's just to keep from falling down. The 8's then got out of shape and drifted over and around the circle so I'd revert to laps again for about 3 circuits. At that point dizziness suggested more 8's. Any thoughts of bouncin' 'er about the sky under my watchful eye disintegrated in those first few laps and 8's. I was only a pawn in the machine until the fuel ran out. As fate would have it the damn thing came in on me as I wasn't able to watch what side of the circle I was on and got high and upwind while maneuvering. The snap when it reached the end of the lines broke one line and it corkscrewed itself into the deck and blew up in a lovely cloud of foam confetti.....

I was secretly relieved....

I'll stick to my 15's thankyouverymuch.

We did a little 15 rat racing around here. Strictly a local event. Great fun and it's still going on with the Flying Clown races and some Goodyear. I thnk they still have some Fox 35 Ringmaster racing too. Even back in the 70's whenever I saw 40 rat racing in action I just wanted to hide behind a car..... preferably with the engine block between me and those "Angels of Death". Those things MOVED. Even speed models, other than the Dynajet stuff, didn't cause the same concern for me for some reason. The thought of one of those things snapping the lines and becoming an unguided missle must haunt the dreams of the AMA insurance company.... I'm sure there's more potential damage than a spent Uranium sabot tank round.... and noisy to boot.

For me a return to my slow combat stuff is a very real eventuality and then there's the old time stunt that seems to be calling my name.... If you listen hard you can hear something on the wind...



........Scarinzi Gay Devil........

Cheers... AND QUIT FOLLOWING ME AROUND....

< Message edited by BMatthews -- 10/16/2003 11:06:58 PM >



_____________________________

Bruce-
Proudly wasting balsa since 1965.

Free Flighters go that extra mile........

(in reply to William Robison)
       Post #: 4

RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 6:05:58 AM   
jessiej



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quote:

Most of the feelings in the original post is fairly accurate, but the sinking, exasperation following the KERWHUMP overhead accompanied by falling foam and balsa chips like snow


Not to mention wondering where the hell those two engines were going!

One of my most memorable matches was a fly off for first and second taking place as a thunderstorm was approaching. Any time the planes were above ten feet we each had a constant tingle of electricity through the handles. I got a kill (he may have let me just to get the thing over and we both quickly pancaked in. " Damn! I'm glad that's over!" we said in unison.

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 10:49:21 PM   
sigrun



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quote:

To those that have flown combat <snip>


Reading this, I could hardly believe how accurately you've summed up what the combat experience feels like to those of us who feel this way about it. It was like hearing an inner voice describing control-line combat witnessed through my own senses.

quote:

but the need for almost constant building and repairing chases me away now and then only to return for a while every couple of years. It's like a drug......


To a man, can we "junkies" identify with this or what!!! Four (4) minutes of adrenaline pumpin' tactical tyranny and counter torment preceded and proceeded by hours, and hours,....and hours of construction!

As in Europe, FAI F2D is the event in this part of the world. Our simile for AMA Fast, called Open, isn't very well patronised even at a National level.

Having flown C/L combat since the late sixties, here are a couple of model names you'll possibly remember? Two which come readily to mind were Bill Netzeband's FAI design "Twister" and "Fast Richard's" (also FAI) "Tearalong" from the US, although most designs flown locally here were of Brit origin such as Mike Davis's "Dominator", Frank Dowling's "Liquidator", "Ironmonger", "Warlord" and "Streamer Eater" often inspired courtesy of "The Aeromodeller" and its included 'free plan' centre liftout.

The parts in your following post about just hanging on, figure 8's to recover and being glad when it all came to a sudden unintended halt rang home. The very first time I flew a Russian F2D design with a circa 30k rpm F2D engine back in 'bout 1990 my experience was identical, sans the crash. I couldn't wait for that bladder to drain and was cursing myself for having filled it with a full syringe! My inevitable crash came not much later in the day when mentally tiring from the unused to speed and losing it vertically overhead in the glare of a summer sun at its zenith, I misjudged the pullout from a wingover - of all manoeuvres. As it turned out, consistantly crashing them until practice and familiarity conditioned one to their performance and speed was a common experience. Every single regular combat flyer friend of mine 'shared' exactly the same humbling balsa crunching introduction to the step up which came with a hot F2D engine and the then Soviet inspired revolutionary new designs.

Whether it's one of these, which I 'fess up are too fast for me these days without fullfilling their prerequisite demand for currency, or a simple slow combat ship a la George Aldrich's legendary "Peacemaker", C/L combat still remains for me the penultimate thrill and most enjoyable form of aeromodelling.

(in reply to BMatthews)
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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/17/2003 11:27:53 PM   
Elwyn



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Hardly done any combat myself but it does rank way up there as one of the better spectator C/L events. Watching two good pilots really going after it, especially a flight where they get through it unscathed, can be fascinating to watch. They fly mostly speed limit combat around here which makes it a little easier to follow the action.

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 12:45:36 AM   
William Robison



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Sigrun:

Carl Berryman had a design he called the "Twister" in 1960, he ands Riley Wooten were the top combat types of the era. Wooten's design of course, was the "Voodoo."

quote:

Bill Netzeband's FAI design "Twister"


Do you know of any connection between Berryman's design and Netzeband's?

Bill.


_____________________________

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AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 3:24:24 AM   
Jim Thomerson



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One of the things that is catching on in the USA is speed-limit combat. The airplane cannot fly faster than 75 or 80 MPH (local rules vary). Any engine up to 40, any fuel system, any prop, 60 ft 018 cables, any airplane. Usually flown with a no kill rule. Most combat seen in all classes is buy-and-fly. .049 combat is awesome, airplanes bigger than the old fast airplanes, now on 42 ft lines. the airplanes are just a blur. I don't see how anyone flys them. I'm a spectator only, when it comes to combat.

Jim

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 3:33:19 AM   
sigrun



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quote:

Carl Berryman had a design he called the "Twister" in 1960,

My mistake. I got my "Twisters" confused with my "Splinters", which is how mine usually ended up.

I just went and checked. Your memory is sharp - better than mine today. In a slip of the tongue I'd said "Twister". OOps! I never built or owned a "Twister". The model I had in mind was the Bill Netzeband's "Splinter" for which I still have my original plan and an interesting article by Bill published in "American Modeler" of the time in which he relates how the design came about (math rules!) and was refined. What a great flyer!

PS: I just headed over to Barry Baxter's plans service to refresh my memory of the the "Twister" (though couldn't find it) and note that Bill's "Splinter" has just been listed among New Plans under his Latest Additions heading.

quote:

Wooten's design of course, was the "Voodoo."

Which assumed legend like status, even in my day!

quote:

quote: Bill Netzeband's FAI design "Twister Do you know of any connection between Berryman's design and Netzeband's?

Only my mistaken one.

Now here's one for memory lane. Speaking of Barry Baxter, in 1970 I bought and built a kit of his "T-Square", which once constructed, to me at the time seemed a monsterous plank! I couldn't remember who kitted it, though I see on Barry's site that it is listed as having been kitted by Sterling.

http://www.controllineplans.com/frameset2.htm

I engined it with the only .35 I owned, a newly acquired and recently run-in OS Max 35S which apart from being my pride and joy, was arguably the C/L stunt engine to own in its day as you'll probably recall. Though by then outdated as a hotly competitive combat design and powered by an unmuffled engine intended for less boisterous activities, did that "T-Square" go and handle with that engine on board! I can still vividly remember hanging on for all it was worth while my navy blue painted "T-Square" would pull like the proverbial banshee, maintaining piano wire like tension in the lines whilst manoeuvreing endlessly in tight-tight circles directly overhead. A sight and sound which truly served the term "awesome", so frequently overused in the contemporary lexicon. Oh the fun I, err..we, had with that model!

PPS: I've just now had a glance at the "Splinter" link on the URL given above, and that image is an cut and paste of the exact same pic featured in the "American Modeler" article to which I referred earlier. Gotta' love that site!

< Message edited by sigrun -- 10/18/2003 3:44:48 AM >

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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 3:58:11 AM   
William Robison



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Sig:

The Twister and Voodoo were hard to tell apart, the T-Square, if memory serves, was also quite similar except for having a flat plate leading to the elevator instead of having the "Flying tail" of the Voodoo and Twister. The successful combat planes of thetime were almost all variations on the flying wing theme. Remember the "Half-Fast?"

And the little "Shrike" rc model has a lot of similarity to the T-Square also.

Bill.


_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

(in reply to BMatthews)
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RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 3:58:55 AM   
BMatthews



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I'm not sure about a Netzeband Twister but I know he came up with the Splinter. It was one, if not the first, of the high aspect ratio models for FAI.

The 15 style we fly is speed limited by the engine size and types allowed. On 52 foot lines the current diesel class runs about 60 mph with the streamer on. The 80 mph on 60's would probably be about the same but have the benifit of more tension. The slow speeds are great for the part time warriors but entertaining for the pros as well. Also the slower speeds offers us hacks some reasonable chance of avoiding line tangles and the inevitable that occurs after that.

One good thing about the british designs we fly currently is that they are so tough that as long as we are flying on reasonably soft grass it's next to impossible to break the models in anything but a mid air. I've dumped my Dominator and Warlord straight in and all we do is give a grunt to suck the model out of the hole it dug, hose off the engine with some alky and crank 'er up again. The spec Top Flite super bendy white nylon props they use just bend back and go for more.

If anyone is interested in this diesel combat here's a link to the site run by my local buddies.....

http://www3.telus.net/dieselcombat/

It's becoming quite popular throughout the NorthWest as far down as Oregon.
Here's a few pics from my album in the meantime. The first is an earlier Fox 15 original that uses the British style of construction. It was fun to fly, easy to build and repair. The second is a couple of models that I can't remember the name of by one of our locals Paul Dranfield. The last is a unknown owner's Dominator that he kindly opened up so that you folks could better understand the intricacies of the British style build....
It was actually the result of a bellcranker....

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< Message edited by BMatthews -- 10/17/2003 11:00:01 PM >



_____________________________

Bruce-
Proudly wasting balsa since 1965.

Free Flighters go that extra mile........

(in reply to Jim Thomerson)
       Post #: 12

RE: Combat anyone? - 10/18/2003 4:02:47 AM   
littlefly



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Speaking of the "T Square", my father built one of those to try to wean himself off the Flite Streaks we were using. Put a Fox 40 BB (backplate-pressurized tank) on it. Was a real 'dizzy" machine! He did fairly well against the locals with their 'Voodoo's. I stayed with the Midwest