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gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 2:46:22 AM   
aero nut


 

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From: tijuanaBaja California, MEXICO
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Hi fellow converts, I am new to the conversion addiction, and after a few conversions I tried a gas engine with a glow plug and gasoline with 50:50 oil ratio (synthetic oil) the engine is a weedeater 18 cc and the ignition was removed, but first I runned the engine with the regular magnet ignition and it turned 7500 rpm's with a 15-8 master airscrew prop,
then I ran the same engine with a glow plug adapter and without the magnetic ignition, the glow plug was kept hot with two 1800 mah metal hidride batteries and the reading on the tach said 7450 rpm's; we then removed the battery while it was running and the rpm's droped about 700 rpm's.
Questions:
Has anybody tryed this configuration.
Perhaps we can use something to make the gasoline a little bit hotter and keep the glow plug burning better.
Any Ideas or input on the matter.
       Post #: 1

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 3:10:53 AM   
mdavies31


 

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From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
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You say 50:50 oil ratio, do you mean 50 to 1 gas to oil or 1 to 1 gas to oil?
If it is 1 to 1 that is way to much oil. 50 to 1 is good.
What glow plug are you using, is there a hotter one? Is the adapter getting the plug into the engine as far as the spark plug went?
Could you use a on board glow driver with a small, light weight battery that only is on at full throttle?

(in reply to aero nut)
       Post #: 2

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 4:47:07 AM   
aero nut


 

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you are right the oil content is a 50:1 ratio; The adapter for the plug was made out of a spark plug to which al the ceramic and electrode was removed then it was tapped with a glow plug tap(1/4, 32) and the plug just comes flush with the bottom of the adapter; the plug we used at the moment was a hobby people's thunderbolt # 3 plug which has a heavier coil, maybe a std rc plug will work better?.
As far as the the onbord system goes we found out that the engine would stop running at idle if the battery was removed.
I was also thinking Hiher comprension ratio perhaps, Higher octane fuel aviation fuel or racing fuel? and use of amsoil for a 100:1 ratio mix.

< Message edited by aero nut -- 11/11/2003 4:54:56 AM >

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 5:04:16 AM   
mdavies31


 

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I don't know thunderbolt plug's but a OS #3 is supposed to be their hottest plug.
I was concerned that the adapter held the plug to high and reduced compression a little but it sounds like it about the same a spark plug.
Gas has less BTU's then alcohol, less BTU's = less power.
With out the battery to keep the plug hot I don't think it will work.

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 5:48:35 AM   
bn120



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From: Gaston, OR,
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I never tried a glow plug with gasoline I thought it would not work, huh guess I was wrong, so why are people using electronic ign. just use a glow plug, gas and a remote glow system?


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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 5:54:26 AM   
bn120



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try a os #F plug for the four strokes they are verry hot and has a thick element to keep it warm enough to go through 4 clcles.

Darin


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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 6:48:19 AM   
h82crash



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The theory goes; methanol reacts with the glow element to keep it hot. I've read stories about people starting their glow engine without a glow battery attached. That behind us, sounds like gas will run with an on board glow system.

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/11/2003 5:05:55 PM   
mdavies31


 

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I've been think about what bn120 said, why do we have spark type systems and I got the answer.
With a spark ignition the plug fires at whatever degrees before top dead center its supposed to but with a glow plug it fires when it wants to. I think thats why you lost rpm with glow and a battery, its firing at less degrees BTDC and even less without the battery because the plug cools off and takes longer to ignite the gas.
His idea about the four stroke plug should help but without any way to control when it fires you may never get to same RPM as a spark plug.
h82 crash is right, I had a GMS .47 start with out a battery, I was flipping it prior to attaching the glow driver to clear it of extra fuel and it started. Woke me right up, glad I was using a chicken stick.

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       Post #: 8

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/12/2003 1:07:25 AM   
bn120



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if in facyt it will run on gas then you could control the timing by the heat applied to the plug 1.5 volts would be hotter than 1 volt so it should fire sooner.whatcha thinks? if this does indeed work I will make all my conversions with a 3 volt pack with a petentiometer to adjust the heat(timing)you could always use the glow driver from a power panel you can adjust the heat it and see if it works.

Darin

ps. keep us posted ,this would really be the ticket for alot of people.


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sooo....was that a soft crash or a hard landing?

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/12/2003 4:04:23 PM   
wvarn1957



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The platinum on the glow plug element is a catalyst which initiates the oxidation(combustion) of the fuel. Platinum is a very common component of catalysts used in the petrochemical and refining industries. It will initiate the oxidation of most any organic in the vapor phase. The rate of combustion is dependent on the specific compound, pressure and temperature. Consequently, gasoline can be used, but consistent performance could be problematic.

Because glow fuel is essentially a single component fuel, it works well in IC engines using catalytic combustion initiation. As a result ignition timing will be consistent. Gasoline, on the other hand, is a multi-component fuel and because of EPA's Air Quality regulations is blended for specific areas and for specific seasonal considerations. Consequently the component mix is constantantly changing. In an IC engine which uses spark initiated ignition, this is not a factor in ignition timing. However in an IC engine dependent upon catalytic initiation, the ignition timing is affected by the varation in composition.

There are several ways to minimize this variation in gasoline blends and get somewhat more consistent timing. Using 100 octane low lead Aviation gasoline would be much more consistent than automotive gasoline, since Avgas blends are very consistent from area to area and season to season to season. In additon, using 15% to 20% methanol or ethanol would improve the timing consistency. Other things such as acetone, MEKP, butane or ether would help, but that is getting pretty exotic in mixing techniques and increases the hazard potential of handeling the mixes.

Increasing or decreasing the compression will also affect the ignition timing. Generally lowering the compressing would have the effect of retarding the timing,while increasing the compression would have the effect of advancing the timing.

In addition the idea of varying the tempature of the glow element by varing the amperage will have some effect on the timing, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to whether or not this would mitigate the impact of the composition variation of gasoline.

I would like to correct a statement that was made in a previous post on the comparison of methanol and gasoline. Methanol, depending on its purity, has a heat content of 8,000 - 9,000 BTU/lb. Ethanol has 11.000-12,000 and typical gasoline blends have 18,000-20-000 BTU/lb. Air to fuel ratios for methanol, ethanol and gasoline are (approximate) 6.5/1, 9/1 and 14.5/1 respectively. An IC engine burning gasoline will run quite a bit hotter than an IC engine burning methanol because of the difference in the latent heats of vaporization.

< Message edited by wvarn1957-RCU -- 11/12/2003 4:05:59 PM >


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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/12/2003 5:31:42 PM   
Herby 1


 

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Buy a gallon of methanol, mix it with synthetic oil at 50-1 like a chainsaw, use a glow plug..No problems....Methanol is not than much more expensive., around here it's around $2.00 a gallon....
You will use about twice as much fuel and the carb will need to be modified for straight methanol...

< Message edited by RCIGN1 -- 11/12/2003 5:32:53 PM >

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/12/2003 6:26:22 PM   
foamcutter


 

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RCIGN1,

What type of modifications to the carb are you suggesting? Bigger carb?

Thanks, Ron

< Message edited by foamcutter -- 11/12/2003 6:27:13 PM >

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 11/12/2003 7:06:04 PM   
Herby 1


 

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Bigger carb is not necessary..Some carbs will work with either fuel, but most need to have the fuel passages enlarged..The main inlet hole, under the inlet needle, is drilled out to .083..All the other holes are doubled in AREA, not DIAMETER..This makes the carb work exactly the same as is does with gasoline..
The Walbro WT499 from a glow G23 works just as well with gasoline as it does with methanol..I put a WT499 on a G26, ran it with gas, got 9000 rpm..Put in a glow plug, changed to glow fuel, turned 9600 rpm..The engine idled and transitioned the same either way...The glow fuel was old so the % of nitro was unknown, probably 15%......

(in reply to foamcutter)