RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition  
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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/9/2003 2:15:07 AM   
antslake



Posts: 393
Joined: 8/3/2003
From: Greenwood Lake, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Thank you squid, thats a great idea.

To clarify about using water in alcohol and gasoline:

First off, the engine that got on drop of water in it and didn't run was because most gas filters will not pass water through them. So the water blocked the gas the same way a piece of dirt would. They did use water injection on planes and cars to help reduce detonation. The injection system was separate from the fuel delivery system.
Gas and water do not mix at all. They can be sprayed into the engine separately.
If you decrease detonation in a high compression engine, you can then bump up the timing, and make more full throttle power. That is the purpose of doing that. More power in a warbird means you can climb higher and get away from the enemy, and more power in a car means you can lower you 1/4 e.t.'s. Too much water is needed to make it practical for everyday use.

Second, the article ion the magazine about adding water to glow fuel, was to dispell the myth of "once glow fuel gets water in it, it is no good" That test was made with 15% nitro I believe. You might not get the same results with straight up menthanol. For some reason he got more rpm's with 20% water, probably because the engine was running cooler. If the water was not mixed perfectly even, then I would suspect that you would have some "flame outs" on the glow plug. Maybe all his engine needed was a cooler glow plug to achieve the same results. It was also an old engine, that may have recieve compression increase from the water? That one test was not the end all to water in your menthanol. There is more to that story I am sure.
I'd be willing to bet that most people would not like to take that chance with there $1000 planes.

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       Post #: 51

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/9/2003 2:51:03 AM   
av8tor1977



Posts: 2768
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: ASH FORK, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Water has a greater "surface tension" than gasoline. If it gets into, or "across" a jet, it will plug the jet because it has a greater surface tension and often cannot be drawn through the jet like gasoline. This is what can happen if water gets into gasoline, especially in our model engines, (or their original applications like weedeaters, snowblowers, etc.) with their small jets. Alcohol is hygroscopic. That means it will absorb moisture, or water, out of the air or a mixture. You can often add a small amount of alcohol to gasoline in a four-stroke engine like in a car, and it will absorb the water and allow it to pass through and be burned. However, if you have alcohol in your gasoline, it can absorb water, and that will not mix with the oil in our two stroke gas/oil mixtures and can cause big problems. All glow fuel has alcohol in it, and it will absorb moisture if you leave your can or jug open, especially in humid climates/areas. I do not know about oil/water/alcohol mixing in glow fuels, but I would suspect it could be very problematic as well. We have had a lot of problems and engine failures in ultralight aviation with alcohol in the gasoline, and all the engine manufacturers specifically warn against using gasoline with alcohol in it for this reason.

As we have already mentioned, alcohol, or alcohol/water injection is a completely different matter. It is a different application for a different reason.

Hope this helps clear things up,
AV8TOR

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/17/2003 11:25:12 PM   
aeronaut-9


 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/16/2003
From: Indianola, IA, USA
Status: offline 		Hi guys I am a new member and I was following this glow ignition with hope that I could get rid of that heavy flywheel,magnets and electronic parts that maybe we don't need, but all of a sudden it came to a halt. What happened to everyone? I was thinking about E85 because it is 85% ethanol and here in Iowa it cost less than regular. I think it will give us more RPM and a better idle.

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       Post #: 53

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/19/2003 5:19:18 AM   
aero nut


 

Posts: 469
Joined: 11/10/2003
From: tijuanaBaja California, MEXICO
Status: offline 		Hi guys, sorry I haven't been in contact but you know the holidays?.
I also have'nt had a chance to try my plan because of the weather we are having here, specially in the weekends, it's like a curse it does'nt rain and is sun-shiny during the week but when Friday gets here guess what? exactly it rains!!!. but I am not giving up on this project I still have hope that something good can be accomplished and will waiti for a brake from the weather to continue with it. Until then I will keep posted and see if anybody else has experimented with their engines or configurations; Until then, Happy Trails CONVERTS.
By the way if we don't get in touch before Christmas; You all have a MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A BAG FULL OF R/C GOODIES.
Sincerely your buddy:
Bill Pomplun alias AERO NUT

(in reply to aeronaut-9)
       Post #: 54

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/19/2003 4:10:26 PM   
aeronaut-9


 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/16/2003
From: Indianola, IA, USA
Status: offline 		What brand of spark plug did you use? When I took the ceramic and the Electrode out of the spark plug that was in my Ryobi engine I ended up with a 3/8" opening which is way to big for a glow plug that is 1/4"X 32 . Your help On this well be appreciated.

Merry Christmas

aeronaut-9

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       Post #: 55

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/20/2003 1:02:27 AM   
tkg


 

Posts: 2202
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Riverton, WY, USA
Status: offline 		CH Electronics has a 14mm to 1/4x32 adapter for $9.95.

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To much power is just about right.

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       Post #: 56

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/20/2003 2:25:37 AM   
av8tor1977



Posts: 2768
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: ASH FORK, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		If you are handy and careful, you can make an adapter out of a spark plug. Weld a plate over the end of the spark plug shell that you gutted, and drill and tap it for the glow plug. You have to be careful not to mess up the spark plug shell threads, and you have to check for piston clearance to the glow plug when you're done. The plate will need to be recessed into the spark plug shell; not just welded over the end.

Good luck, and can't wait to hear your results,
AV8TOR

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/20/2003 9:39:02 AM   
AutoMike


 

Posts: 749
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Seymour, IN,
Status: online 		aeronaut-9, Call Pete from www.wackerengines.com ,352 628 5810. I got the opportunity to test his prototypes and he's got just what you need. He's selling them for $12 shipped and he's easy to contact by phone even. Seems to like the phone better than e-mail, gotta like that. Piper

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/20/2003 1:20:45 PM   
Flypaper 2



Posts: 4337
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Kingston, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		On the ww2 birds, they could lean out the mixture with water injection for combat power. Alcohol was added to the water so it wouldn't freeze at high altitude.

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 12/20/2003 2:01:55 PM   
av8tor1977



Posts: 2768
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: ASH FORK, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		A reprint of my post from above regarding water injection...

But I do know a little about water injection. The water, or water/alcohol injection, was first used I believe, on the World War Two fighters. It is used to combat detonation in engines with high compression ratios and/or being run with a gasoline of lesser quality octane rating than needed. You are right, it was offered and used for car engines for a time as well. The older cars were designed with higher compression ratios, and when the fuel quality started declining in the beginning of the "smog years", the water injection systems would sometimes help the situation.

Detonation is generally more of a problem in, as I said, high compression engines, and also in engines with large bores. Our little weedie engines have both small bores, and low compression ratios, so detonation is not a problem, even with today's crappy gasoline. Water &/or water/alcohol injection would probably be a waste of time and gain nothing. One interesting side note however, is that the engines run with the injection showed remarkably clean combustion chambers and piston tops, with virtually no carbon build up.

It isn't done to lean out the mixture, leaning the mixture would make the detonation problem worse.
AV8TOR

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 1/3/2004 7:30:09 PM   
aero nut


 

Posts: 469
Joined: 11/10/2003
From: tijuanaBaja California, MEXICO
Status: offline 		Hey aeronut-9 sorry I didn't reply earlier but it was the holidays you know!
on the plug adapter issue, what my friend did once he stripped the hole thing he drilled the top with a 1/2 inch bit so he could insert the glo plug deep enough to be level with the bottom part of the adapter, then as far as the 3/8 hole he plugged with 3/8 aluminum stock bar then proceeded to drill the hole for the 1/4 x 32 tap that is required for the glo plug.
Now that the holidays obligation are over (and the wife is happy) I will start working on my project a.s.a.p. and will keep you posted with my results if you do some experimenting please let us know I am eager to find out of any results if any out there, and like I said before it would bring us some savings in weight (about a pound) on these engines.

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       Post #: 61

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 1/5/2004 6:56:13 PM   
Jitters



Posts: 68
Joined: 10/8/2002
From: Hinterlands, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		well I'm coming from a complete different aspect to this. I race 1/5 scale r/c cars that most use zenoah 23cc two strokes well being the tinkerer that I'am I would like to try a four stroke . most people don't want to even give them the time of day because of the power to size and weight ratio. I've been following people playing with the honda gx 31 for aiplanes and boat conversions with people having just average success. there is one thing I have'nt seen people try and that is would there be a major jump in performance if the motor was switched to run on high nitro glow fuel? what do you folks think?

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RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 1/25/2004 4:34:06 AM   
aero nut


 

Posts: 469
Joined: 11/10/2003
From: tijuanaBaja California, MEXICO
Status: offline 		Hi aeronaut-9,
On the glo plug adapter question that you made I forgot to say that the 3/8 inch hole that is left once you brake the ceramic part was pluged with a 3/8 inch aluminum solid rod using a bench press or vice, then he proceeded to drill and tap for 1/4 32 for the glow plug, sorry for the omision on my part.
Have you tried to run on glow plug and gasoline yet?

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       Post #: 63

RE: gas fuel with glo plug no ignition - 1/30/2004 8:07:34 PM   
stupidaso