"3D Waiver"?  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> "3D Waiver"?
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"3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 5:50:35 PM   
Heads_Up



Posts: 288
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Mesquite, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Rule 9 2004 Safety Code addition....

Turbine pilots have a "Jet Waiver" that takes them months to prove they are capible of hadling a turbine. Why can't we do the same thing ... a "3D Waiver"? We would have to prove to the AMA that we are able to perform "ground touchs" in a controled manner then we would be given "permission" to do so as a trained "3D Pilot".

Just because a jet pilot has a waiver does not mean he is less likely to have a major mishap but he knows the proper protocal to follow and is trained to do so. Same could be said for a 3D pilot with a "Ground Touch Waiver".

Just food for thought.

Rick

< Message edited by Heads_Up -- 11/12/2003 6:04:15 PM >


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Heads_Up
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 5:55:12 PM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1955
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		Rick,
I'm afraid that the 'waiver' system would open the door to much more regulation!! I think it would end up a mess as it has with the turbine side (my opinion of course). I really don't see a problem with tail touching the ground if you're 20' in front of the pitts and your plane is 20' in front of you, especially if you are the only one at the field. If you can't 'safely' crash it (if something goes wrong) being that far out you probably shouldn't be hovering and dragging the tail to begin with. Are we going to have to start getting signed off on every maneuver before everyone is happy and qualified?

Jon

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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 6:00:18 PM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		.....and a novice waiver.
.....and a heli waiver.
.....and a Giant Scale waiver.
Has Pandoras Box been opened?

(in reply to jonkoppisch)
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 6:12:14 PM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1955
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		:^) I agree with you Z. Jon

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xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 6:21:50 PM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		And I you Jon.
I think distance plays a much more important role than a lot of other things. With proper distance, I think you should be allowed to do whatever you want (with-in sane reason...of course ), sans regs.

Brian

(in reply to jonkoppisch)
       Post #: 5

RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 6:51:03 PM   
DocYates



Posts: 2646
Joined: 1/2/2002
From: Killen, AL, USA
Status: offline 		LEt me play devil's advocate for a minute. I want to fly turbines, so I bought one (then another), invested some time in learning how to operate it safely, bought the right equipment (fire extinquisher, etc) and set aside a time to demonstrate my flying skills to an appointed person and perform a simple set of manuevers for that person, in order to get my waiver. The entire process took me a couple of months, but in reality it could have been done in a few days.

Now the gist of this story is to ask you if I am more qualified to fly this jet than I was before? In reality, the answer is no, but to put it in perspective I am defintely more knowledgable about the risks, and I am certainly more prepared for an emergency should one arise. How many guys out there who fly gasoline powered planes carry a fire extinquisher with them to the field? How many keep it on hand when they start they planes? How many have been properly instructed on how to start and adjust the gasoline engine or the big two strokes we run wchih swing large fiberglass and carbon fiber blades? I know I never was instructed, I just sort of learned it on my own and by watching others.

In my opinion, there does need to be some issues addressed. I have expressed my concerns in other threads about reckless endangerment of others, and sadly instead of pointing that out the parties involved, I did not. Not becasue I did not think it was dangerous, but becasue it has been allowed for so long, and condoned by some event CD's that it is generally accepted as OK and to represent a minimal risk to the pilots and spectators.

No today we are faced with more regulations in the turbine crowd, one of which is a proposal to require yearly requalification. More and more restrictions are being placed on a small minority while a larger group is allowed to go on without restrictions. Restrictions that for the most part would not be necessary if not for a few people.

Well I chummed the waters, the sharks are free to attack...
Tommy

(in reply to zxcv11)
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 7:26:58 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Doc, sounds like you are in favor of a "Giant Scale Gas Aerobatic" waiver. I've seen plenty of warbirds dork it, better expand to Warbird Waiver. Helicopters are certainly potentially deadly, do I hear a Heli Waiver?? Shoot, pylon racers have armored cages on their course, surely they need a waiver. For that matter, just about anything wth a prop is dangerous. Waivers are in order.

I'm sorry the AMA subjects the turbine flyers to a waiver process, often at quite a bit of burden to the people seeking the waiver as well as those issuing it. It's not my rule. Thing is, not many household items are turbine powered. Many are gasoline powered. A lot of people have a working knowledge of gas powered equipment, not many are versed in turbine operation.

So let's require waivers for everything, and we can only then truly be safe and even resemble the articles in Model Aviation....free flight rubber powered aviators.

Stock up on your rubber and tissue, here we come!


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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 7:33:36 PM   
DocYates



Posts: 2646
Joined: 1/2/2002
From: Killen, AL, USA
Status: offline 		No, but what I am in favor of is a set of rules that that can be applied fairly throughout the ranks. I don't want to see a waiver of any kind, but let's face it that is not gonna happen. My interests is jets (turbines to be exact, love the smell of that bruning kerosene), therefore I only see it from my point of view. I agree there are lots of dorkers out there, some fly #-D,some fly warbirds, some pylon, etc. If you are going to initiate a waiver policy it could be broad enough to cover the majority of these. A giant scale waiver was suggested years ago, but never happened. Why, because of the large number of guys out there flying them. I bet there are more accident every year from those than there are from the jets.
As I stated early my intention was not alienate any group. I was simply pointing out that my turbines represented a signifcant investment which I will ahve to jump through a few hoops to be able to fly and run. OTOH, I learned a lot from my "introductory training" and am certainly more aware of the rules and procedures for safely operating them as well as any of my other planes, which includes giant scale, gliders, helis, and a few boats. A little education does not hurt anyone.
Tommy

(in reply to ChuckAuger)
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 7:59:47 PM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1955
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think a 'waiver' is the answer as a lot of people will probably just go 'outlaw'. What would probably work better is a club training program. Unfortunately either way is going to put a tremendous load on whoever is chosen to do the training and enforceing. As no one is going to be compensated it will probably be done about half way in either case. I don't think we need more rules. What we need is more people to step up and offer to help the people we see having trouble. If several members see that someone is unsafe or having trouble they should approach them. Someone said something about tickets. Maybe the club should issue warning tickets, 2 incidents and you have to go thru training again? Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2HxRNgkjpQ

(in reply to DocYates)
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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 8:18:27 PM   
js3



Posts: 1147
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChuckAuger

<snip>Shoot, pylon racers have armored cages on their course, surely they need a waiver. For that matter, just about anything wth a prop is dangerous. Waivers are in order.</snip>


Chuck,

We pylon racers have had to contend with waivers for about the last eight years (or thereabouts--I don't know exactly when this became active). I do believe that the pylon waiver was the first such document to be issued by the AMA. In order to fly at an AMA sanctioned pylon race, I must sign the waiver. Believe me, when the waiver was instituted, we felt like we were being singled out and picked upon.

The Gorilla cages are a thing of the past. Now the only people allowed on the course are the pilot/caller teams, the starter and the asst. starter. Everyone else must be at least 300 feet away.

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John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 8:23:35 PM   
sfaust



Posts: 1807
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Boston, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I personally think a 3D waiver would be a waste of time, and far more restrictive on the average pilot than need be. If a waiver was presented by the AMA in order to cover rule #9, I would hope that it would only be required at big events with a large spectator audience, and not at local flying sites. I feel the events are really the only place where a significant safety issue is present because of the large crowd. Frankly, I think just adding some distance between the spectators and the pilots is all that is really needed to keep it safe. And keep in mind that Rule #9 is not about touching the tail in a hover, but also covers such things as touching a wing tip in a low knife edge pass, hovering inverted in a helicopter while cutting the grass, etc. I've only seen a couple instances where torque rolling and tail touching presented a risk, and they were all at big events. I've never seen any other 3D flying to be any more risky than any basic aerobatics, anything in the IMAC sequences, etc.

As one that has been through the waiver process for turbines, I can say its not a big deal. I needed to spend a little time to understand how the turbines operate, normal start up and shutdown, emergency slam shutdowns, increased fire risk, residual thrust, etc. All common stuff once you understand the turbines. Basically, they just wanted to make sure I had taken the time to understand the difference between turbine flying and prop flying, and the safety equipment and procedures. Then I just had to fly with a existing CD who has a turbine waiver to show I could handle a high performance airplane. It probably took me about 6 hours over the course of a couple weeks. If scheduling permitted, I probably could have done it in a couple days.

However, even though it was easy, I wouldn't want the waivers to start applying everything else. Flying turbines is unique and presents a whole new set of operating parameters that exist in no other area of the hobby. In my opinion, flying turbines deserves a waiver process because of this, whereas flying 3D doesn't.

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Stephen

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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 8:24:47 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Doc, I think my post would have benefitted from a few smilies. I understand where you are coming from, nobody wants a waiver for every aspect of the hobby.

I feel for the dollar investment you have made, only to then have to go through the waiver process. But on the other hand, the same giant scale gas aerobats you mention can have a signifcant dollar value attached to them. As can high end pylon fleets. High end helis. You know the rest....lots of people have lots of money tied up in lots of facets of the hobby. None of them are going to be any more thrilled than you, and like you said, you are in the minority. At least on the turbine end..I see you fly a variety of types of craft.

With all of the new rules suddenly thrust upon us all, as modelers in general, it's going to take a while to see what shakes out. All I can do is offer the advice passed on to me in my opposition to the no tail touch rule (some of it from jet pilots). Well, on second thought, I'm not going to pass that advice on.


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RE: How about a "3D Waiver"? - 11/12/2003 8:31:21 PM   
ChuckAuger



Posts: 5134
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Pampa, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: js3

Chuck,

We pylon racers have had to contend with waivers for about the last eight years (or thereabouts--I don't know exactly when this became active). I do believe that the pylon waiver was the first such document to be issued by the AMA. In order to fly at an AMA sanctioned pylon race, I must sign the waiver. Believe me, when the waiver was instituted, we felt like we were being singled out and picked upon.

The Gorilla cages are a thing of the past. Now the only people allowed on the course are the pilot/caller teams, the starter and the asst. starter. Everyone else must be at least 300 feet away.


Thanks for setting me straight.. I didn't realize there were already pylon waivers. Perhaps we are already closer to having a waiver for everything than I imagined. The only AMA sanctioned competition I have participated in has been Open B Combat, and there were no waivers for that..yet. Should have added that to my list on the way out to buy that rubber and tissue


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(in reply to js3)