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RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 5:41:18 AM   
shanksow



Posts: 477
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Lubbock, TX, USA
Status: offline 		You GO Maverick!

Right on!

JR Your right too (It's more of a certification than a waiver).

I still consider myself just a sport pilot, but I have the goal in mind to be CERTIFIED (or Turbine Waiver Holder (TWH)) at some point in the remaining years of my life. And I'm only going to be 44 some this December. I still have time to build up certification levels. I help out my friends who already do have turbine aircraft. Either in the pits or out on the runway as a spotter/time keeper. While I am doing that, I am also learning HOW THEY DO IT.

I've just built and flown a Great Planes Viper 500 ARF Quicke 500 to build up my fast prop plane experience. Got three flights on it so far. I have a Duct fan F-4 waiting in the wings to finish. That too will provide me with needed flight experience.

I WENT OUT AND BOUGHT A DAMN WINDOWS PC JUST TO RUN THAT FREAKING GP REAL FLIGHT G2 PROGRAM ON TO GET USE TO HOW A JET MODEL BEHAVES. That computer is used for one thing and one thing only - radio control model flight simulation training. (BTW: All my other computer stuff is taken care of by my Mac including surfing the net).

I've been away from reading RCU posts for the past week and a lot of stuff has come up. I don't normally haunt the AMA thread, but this issue about Dave Brown and this possible re-writing of the already approved rules now worries me... Others have written what they think about this problem and have stated it better than what I can do. IF it IS just about what type of Speed Limiters - fine. But if it is to rewrite what the EC and JPO has been able to knock together - everyone; including you Sport Pilot should be concerned!

< Message edited by shanksow -- 11/14/2003 5:42:25 AM >

_____________________________

Don W. Shanks
http://aerospacedreams.blogspot.com/

(in reply to maverick)
       Post #: 51

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 1:46:23 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7639
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: online 		I don't understand why the derogatory use of my handle. IMO almost all of the jet pilots are sport pilots. I was using this handle before I got back into R/C and applies to my attitude of full scale aircraft as well.

Now I am confused you certify a pilot and call it a waiver? To call it a waiver implies just the opposite. Now I really don't understand the objection to Mr. Brown. Seems like you would want the extra regs so that it is easier to get the certification.

You guys need to spend some time with education rather than bashing those that do not understand. With all of the bashing and whining, now I'd just rather the jet guys just quit and start there own organization, whereas if properly identified as a certification I would have been more accepting.

(in reply to shanksow)
       Post #: 52

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 3:15:50 PM   
jonkoppisch



Posts: 1924
Joined: 12/17/2001
From: Wilmer, AL, USA
Status: offline 		Sport_Pilot
Like you I was confused about the ‘waiver’ when I heard about it. I couldn’t understand why you had to sign a waiver then go thru several qualifications to fly a turbine. I found out that what they call a ‘waiver’ is really more of a certification. Here’s the def of a waiver:
1.
A. Intentional relinquishment of a right, claim, or privilege.
B.The document that evidences such relinquishment.
2. A dispensation, as from a rule or penalty.
3. Permission for a professional athletic club to assign a player to the minor leagues or release a player from the club, granted only after all other clubs have been given the opportunity to claim the player and have not done so.
4. A deferment.

When you test for the ‘cert’ you have to show that you have obtained ground schooling about the turbine you will be operating, demonstrate proper safety protocol for operation, answer written tests concerning the operation of a turbine and demonstrate actual flying skills thru certain maneuvers to show that you are competent to fly a high performance aircraft. What gets me is that you can obtain your waiver using high performance aircraft (gas or glow) with 0 flight time on a turbine but after obtaining the waiver and obtaining actual turbine experience + flying your high performance aircraft all year, you now need to come in once a year and requalify. So with no experience you can get the waiver, with experience you need to come requalify. Hmmmm.


Jon

_____________________________

xps and a flash = NO MORE FLASH...
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(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 53

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 3:32:24 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6703
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: online 		Well, I tried to type in an explanation of the waiver & the REAL issue at hand - spent a LONG time putting in lots of details, but good old RCU wiped my message out (I couldn't even go back & get a copy of it) and told me that I could not post until I changed my firewall. BS.

I aint typing that all in again. For now, I'm just giving up on RCU.

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- 11/14/2003 10:33:44 AM >

_____________________________

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

(in reply to jonkoppisch)
       Post #: 54

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 3:35:09 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7639
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: online
quote:

What gets me is that you can obtain your waiver using high performance aircraft (gas or glow) with 0 flight time on a turbine but after obtaining the waiver and obtaining actual turbine experience + flying your high performance aircraft all year, you now need to come in once a year and requalify. So with no experience you can get the waiver, with experience you need to come requalify. Hmmmm.


Yeah, the legal defination would imply they are getting a pass.

As the lady in SNL used to say. Never Mind!

Does sound like a rule change is in order from your above description.

(in reply to jonkoppisch)
       Post #: 55

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 3:52:44 PM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Maybe the term 'waiver' was more in reference to their 'insurance' requirements...LOL (jk)

Brian

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 56

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:02:15 PM   
lov2flyrc



Posts: 4564
Joined: 12/6/2001
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Same happended to me gordon, I took the time to write it again as I really believe this is important....

Sport_pilot and all,
Here in-lies the problem; we have many just like yourself that make assumptions without taking the time to educate yourself beforehand. I am sorry if I came off arrogant; perhaps I let my anger take control yesterday. Let me take a few moments to explain some things….
The waiver as it is called in much more like a certification. It is called a waiver because the AMA by-laws stated the use of turbine engines as a power plant was prohibited. When turbine technology became mainstream, the ama needed to find a way to allow turbine operations to fall under the ama insurance umbrella. Because operating these types of engines required a bit more skill, understanding and safety, the ama developed the waiver process to assure that any individual that wished to operate a turbine aircraft had the knowledge and skill-set required to do so. Currently, any individual that wishes to obtain a waiver will need to demonstrate his flying skills in front of two CD’s, one being a turbine cd (TCD); an individual certified by the ama and jpo to perform a “check ride” much like a full scale examiner (I am one of these TCD). In addition to the “check ride”, the individual must take a ground school and a written exam that is scored by the AMA. Flight performance must be assed using a high speed complex aircraft (should have flaps, retracts etc…) and there are specific maneuvers we will want performed and the pilot must show he is in control of the aircraft at all times.
As you can see, this will eliminate many individuals from obtaining a waiver whose skill set is not quite ready for these high performance aircraft.
In addition to flying skills, they are instructed to how to properly operate their turbine engine, taught how to properly shut the engine down in an emergency and proper installation and setup techniques. Do you know any other facet of this hobby that has such a demanding process just to be able to fly these types of aircraft??
Please, I beg all of you to educate yourself before jumping to conclusions, jet pilots are some of the safest operators of RC aircraft, and our history reflects that! It is not the speed which kills; it is the recklessness of those behind the sticks! Keep in mind, the two most recent fatalities in RC was from a 40 size trainer and a .60 size helicopter. As turbine operators we are trained on what to do in emergency situations and our aircraft are equipped to shut down should there be signal loss, how many sport pilots can say the same?
I have logged over 575 turbine flights on four aircraft this year alone. Only one was lost (on its maiden) due to hardware (servo) failure. Do I sound unsafe to you?
Thanks for listening.
Todd

_____________________________

Owner/President: Dreamworks Model Products LLC
www.dreamworksrc.com 386-852-4793

(in reply to zxcv11)
       Post #: 57

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:06:52 PM   
Kevin_W


 

Posts: 752
Joined: 3/5/2002
From: Carrollton, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Because the AMA safety code has a line in it that sates:

"I will not operate any turbine engine (axial or centrifigal flow) unless I have obtained a special waiver for such operations. "

The "waiver" is simply the AMA's way of saying that as far as this sentence is concerned
I will not operate any turbine engine (axial or centrifigal flow)
You have demonstrated the ability to operate these engines in a safe manner, we will "waive" this rule for you, and you may operate them and still be in compliance with the safety code. This in turn means that you are insured in case of an accident while operating a turbine engine.

< Message edited by Kevin_W -- 11/14/2003 11:09:23 AM >

_____________________________

Kevin Whitlow
Texas Jetcat rep

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 58

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:18:33 PM   
maverick



Posts: 1575
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Alameda, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

I don't understand why the derogatory use of my handle.

I apologize. However this is something we all feel very strongly about and people that don't take the time to educate themselves before shooting their mouths off aren't looked upon very favorably. I see some of my compatriots have taken the time to explain some of this to you, but just maybe you should have learned what you were talking about before commenting in such a negative way.

< Message edited by maverick -- 11/14/2003 8:20:22 AM >

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Maverick: "Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns!"

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RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:21:26 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Nice post Todd

I think the other members should realize that when this program started, it was quite an undertaking for many to get a waiver. Appointments had to be made with a TCD and many pilots had to make trips of hundreds of miles to meet the TCD in order to attempt to get a waiver. This is not something that can be done in an hour. That is still the case. If you spend some time in the jet forum, an amazing amount of time is spent discussing individuals that have a waiver that possibly should have it revoked. These guys are concerned about the safety of their facet of the hobby and it is not just lip service.

JR

(in reply to lov2flyrc)
       Post #: 60

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:22:32 PM   
zxcv11



Posts: 380
Joined: 9/11/2003
From: Glenshaw, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

the ama needed to find a way to allow turbine operations to fall under the ama insurance umbrella.


OK...so no maybe about it. It is an 'exclusion' brought about by insurance necessity. Thanks for the lesson guys!! Great info. See, now this is more of what the web/forums should be about.....education!!

PS-Just to be clear, I find nothing wrong with jets, or their pilots. Someday I aspire to reach your heights!! Just thought I'd make that clear since my little 'comment' on insurance was my first input to this very important topic.

Regards,
Brian

(in reply to Kevin_W)
       Post #: 61

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:35:29 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Hi maverick

The AMA forum is unique on RCU. We get a lot of folks here that are not versed in more than their own segment of the hobby. It becomes a necessaity to explain almost everything that is unique to your segment. Sometimes it works well to point to the source of information, such as the wiaver requirements on the AMA site.

At the same time, it is a great place to discuss AMA issues. It has the advantage of several AMA leaders, both EC and HQ, monitoring it. That gives those that post here something of a soap box to post from. New ideas, as well as complaints can be floated out.

I guess what I am trying to get at is that useful posts here need to be part informational and part educational. It's a great place to create a better understanding of all aspects of RC.

JR

(in reply to maverick)
       Post #: 62

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 4:38:37 PM   
maverick



Posts: 1575
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Alameda, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J_R

I guess what I am trying to get at is that useful posts here need to be part informational and part educational. It's a great place to create a better understanding of all aspects of RC.

JR, no problem. I accept your advice. I agree, education is the best way to promote all aspects of this great hobby. I guess I am just the type of person that will self-educate instead of expecting people to spoon-feed me, but I understand I cannot expect the same of everybody. I was not trying to be abusive in any way, I just feel very strongly about this!

_____________________________

Maverick: "Too close for missiles, I'm switching to guns!"

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 63