RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA  
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RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 10:24:15 PM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

SNIP

Note the number of snap on landing posts. Course part of the problem is poor aerodynamics on many of the ARFS and even kit models.


Sorry, but I am not sure I agree with this last thesis.

Observations have convinced me that a bigger part of the problem is that not many were taught the proper way to test a new plane which would address and resolve most of the "tip stall" issues. That means slow flight, flight testing for elevator authority (looking for excessive throw), flight testing for correct CG issues, and properly (laterally) balanced airframes and control responses at all airspeeds.

But that is MY opinion!

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 76

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 10:45:36 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		First off, it is Vodoo.. or something. It seems to come after the point where you no longer get disoriented. A feeling of one with the plane.

Second, there is ain't nothing wrong with the aerodynamics of ARF's or kits that beating them little air molecules down to size won't fix.

Are you guys sure you wanna take this thread off into spiritualism and the engineering aspects of models?

JR

(in reply to Jim Branaum)
       Post #: 77

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/14/2003 10:45:53 PM   
sfaust



Posts: 1807
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Boston, MA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Feel it in the sticks? Maybe you have some psyche ability you need to explain to us?


Stick feel? Absolutely! At high speed, the elevator is more authoritative and you can tell by how much 'stick' is required for the required attitude change. As the airplane slows down, the same attitude change requires more elevator input, hence more stick. The difference between the stick inputs can easily be called 'stick feel'. When the airplane is slower, you work the sticks more because you need more control deflection to get the same actions from the airplane. If you get to know your airplane well, you can tell when its nearing a stall based on the stick feel in conjunction with the typical visual and audible clues. For example, if your airplane is trimmed for level at high speed, then you slow it down, you better be holding in some elevator to keep it level. If you had no other clues other than a horizontal line in the sky and trying to keep your airplane on it, you could tell if it was going fast or slow based on the 'stick feel' of the elevator. No input, its going fast. Some elevator held in, its say medium speed. Lots of elevator and mushy response, is slow.

As a full scale pilot yourself, I am surprised that you haven't noticed that correlation yourself.

No voodoo required.

< Message edited by sfaust -- 11/14/2003 5:50:06 PM >

_____________________________

Stephen

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 78

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 12:39:31 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		ROFLOL!

I will never forget the first time I heard someone say that (just before I got into R/C). Being a FS pilot, I could not figure out HOW they could possibly speak of 'stick feel' when the model was over that a way.

VOODOO?

Nah, simple hand and eye coordination at 300+ feet.

In other words, being able to recognize what is happening based on what stick inputs you are/have made. That is the FIRST thing we teach newbies once they are in the air. How long it takes them to solo is based on how well they follow instruction and how fast they are able to marry up what they see with what they feel in the sticks.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to sfaust)
       Post #: 79

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 4:34:43 AM   
Terry Holston



Posts: 3114
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maverick

I think you should either go to the AMA website and read all 23 documents that describe the regulations (yes there are really 23 documents that describe in detail the regulations) on turbine flyers, or just step back and stop posting irrelevant, completely unfounded information that just proves you have no real knowledge of this situation.

Once you have read all 23 documents, come back and we can have a real discussion about how regulated the turbine flyers are.


Actually, There are 28 docs if you count the turbine helicopter and turboprop docs, too.

_____________________________

Terry Holston,I Fly TGA Jets As a REP
I'm NOT speeding, I'm QUALIFYING

(in reply to maverick)
       Post #: 80

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 4:44:55 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7837
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Actually I agree with you. I thought the waiver was an agreement signed by the owner and the AMA that some special rules were to be met, I didn't know it included a competency check.

(in reply to rsallen13)
       Post #: 81

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 4:51:55 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		To: All Turbine Waiver Holders

Subject: Education of the general AMA membership

Message: One down, 169,000 to go.

JR

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 82

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 4:57:52 AM   
Kevin Greene



Posts: 2675
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Jackson, TN, USA
Status: offline 		I received an Email from Dave Brown today in response to my Email I sent him yesterday.

This is what it said," I believe that you have, sadly, been misinformed as to my position."

Guys---I'm not going to post anything else on this subject until all of the smoke clears. There are at least two sides to every story...I just would like Dave Brown to clear the air with his version.

Kevin

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 83

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 5:03:52 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7837
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Stick feel? Absolutely!


Well you didn't bother to post the part where I explained the same thing. This is not feel. In a real airplane you can pretty much keep an even flair by keeping the same PRESSURE not movement because as the airspeed bleeds off there is less backpressure on the stick or yoke so the same pressure means more movement at slower speeds. That is not the same as noticing the amount of elevator you have to feed in, I am well aware of that. Also you cannot feel the buffeting through the stick just before a stall.

I see on the jet video's that while the skill level is definately above most sport fliers there is room for improvement, much of which could be made with an audible airspeed warning system. The number of good to bad landings are not that much better than my own, though admittedly many of them are probably much harder to land. There are a number of ARFS which have constant taper of both chord and thickness. Keeping the thickness slightly fatter at the tips would help improve the tip stall of many ARFS. Mostly though it is just getting too slow and not using rudder. Something I am guilty of myself every so often, I had a model that I tended to do this on even with rudder. I made changes to it which made it a lot heavier and kept forgetting to keep it on a faster approach. Then it went really crazy and would drop a wing every time I gave up elevator. Turned out to be covering at the leading edge which would turn up like a stall warning indicator, but would lay down flat when the plane was on the ground.

(in reply to sfaust)
       Post #: 84

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 5:36:48 AM   
sfaust



Posts: 1807
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Boston, MA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Well you didn't bother to post the part where I explained the same thing. This is not feel. In a real airplane you can pretty much keep an even flair by keeping the same PRESSURE not movement because as the airspeed bleeds off there is less backpressure on the stick or yoke so the same pressure means more movement at slower speeds. That is not the same as noticing the amount of elevator you have to feed in, I am well aware of that. Also you cannot feel the buffeting through the stick just before a stall.


You can indeed feel what the aircraft is doing. Not in the traditional sense as would a full scale pilot, but in the sense of what an RC pilot would feel. An RC pilot talking to another RC pilot would understand immediately what he was referring to if he said, I could feel it was getting slow on final. Telling a non-RC pilot the same would garner inquisitive looks. If the pilot is flying his airplane straight and level, and he keeps feeding in more and more elevator to maintain level flight, he is indeed 'feeling' the changes of the aircraft and knows it is slowing down. Arguing over what we call it is rather pointless. We have both admitted it exists, and are just arguing over the semantics of what its called. Some people like to use colorful language, and most people can see it for what it is. Some on the other hand, will argue till they are blue in the face that making a copy is not making a Xerox. Or a tissue is not really a Kleenex. If thats what you want to argue, so be it, but I've spend far more time that I should have already.

< Message edited by sfaust -- 11/16/2003 9:22:01 PM >

_____________________________

Stephen

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 85

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 6:42:13 AM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: online 		wana make a "copy" of that "kelnex" for me<G>

(in reply to sfaust)
       Post #: 86

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 8:57:36 AM   
ProfLooney



Posts: 2413
Joined: 1/18/2002
From: Moline, IL, USA
Status: offline 		oh This has been a fun thread to read. And just think i sat back and didnt chime in in fact I miss my little spats with JR But Sport flyer I just have to say you have spouted some of the most uninformed BS I have ever seen on this AMA forum.

First for your insurance you need to see who and what is causeing all the problems it isnt the jet guys (no i aint one of them i know my skill levels and espically dont want to go through all the hoops to get a waiver because there are many and i just dont have the skill or time) your insurance rates are because of you the average joe sunday sport flyer. 90% of all claims are from that segment and out of those 90% 80% are just from careless accidents at the field like trips and falls, not thinking and sticking their hand in a prop etc. Me and JR have gone back and forth on this many a time. I like to fly the big warbirds the bigger the better but I see more skill and less fooling around with the jets and larger planes including the 3D guys (which most know i Dispise mainly for the kid just out of trainers getting himself a 40% plane and hovering over the field) than I do in the standard sport flyer. I think we have enough rules and regs to cover all aspects but 1 and that is at the club level the common hobby flier. the only regulations they have are to get okayed to solo from their club trainer. the after that what regulates them. we have enough rules and regulations except for a very minor few and we dont need any more.

You talk abt regulating stuff and instruments on planes in case of cross winds etc so they dont stall. Uh you need to learn more abt weights and velocities the heavier larger planes are un affected by those little 5 mile changes. Most of us that fly the larger planes have gone to events and every time you want to fly at an event it is the worst weather and usually windy. Who are the ones on the ground? the small planes because the winds affect them so much. I have seen IMAC planes and others at events with 30 mile an hour gusts and you barely see them affected. WHY you ask well I wqill tell you the lighter your plane the more the wind velocity affects it. set a feather in your hand and blow it and see how it affects it then set a stick of gum in your hand and blow it. Heavier is safer no mater what you think because nature cannot affect it as much as light planes. Also most people that fly the high wing loaded planes like warbirds know that on landing you have to keep flaps down and power up I see so many sport guys moving to their little sprt wqarbirds wonder why they crash. Learn abt the type of aircraft you are flying and let otheres worry abt their own in this case stick to your sport planes and enjoy them and let the jet guys worry abt their own area. remember the above its the common sport guy causeing the accidents and most of them are careless trip and fall. Also only $15 of that $58 you pay goes for insurance and $17 or so goes for the AMA rag the rest is AMA operating expenses so dont try to blow it into an insurance thing because you dont pay enough for the insurance to worry abt it..

Joe Huntley
USSMA Midwest Reg. Mgr.
http://home.mchsi.com/~ussmamidwest/

< Message edited by ProfLooney -- 11/15/2003 4:02:55 AM >

_____________________________

Great War R/C
Http://www.proflooney.net

(in reply to mongo)
       Post #: 87

RE: URGENT - Huge Battle at AMA - 11/15/2003 1:11:40 PM   
sfaust



Posts: 1807
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Boston, MA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mongo

wana make a "copy" of that "kelnex" for me<G>


I can't legally copy that klenex, but I can legally xerox a tissue for you Think about how true that is!

Now enough of this nonsense, and lets get back to correcting all the mis-infomration in this thread.

< Message edited by sfaust -- 11/15/2003 8:13:12 AM >

_____________________________

Stephen

(in reply to mongo)
       Post #: 88