Time for a NEW Organization/Structure?  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> Time for a NEW Organization/Structure?
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Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 4:50:49 PM   
WilsonFlyer


 

Posts: 522
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Wilson, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Maybe it's just time to start an entirely NEW organization.

I've been contemplating this for a few weeks now having seen some of the BS that's going on (rules-wise and otherwise) in what is supposed to be a fun hobby. Too much BS for me and not enough substanance if you ask me (and you didn't! LOL).

After getting back into this hobby only 3-4 months ago, I'm still trying to figure out what the AMA brings to the table aside from an outstretched hand every 4th quarter.

Maybe it's time for a new grass-roots ORGANIZATION by the people and not for the benefit of a buncha prima-donas egos.

There. I said it. Now let's do something about it. Anybody wanna belly-up-to-the-bar?

I wanna investigate the possibilities. Is anyone else interested and I mean REALLY interested. It's one thing to "stand around here" and talk the talk and bi***, moan and complain. what I want is interested parties that sincerely want to do something about it as an alternative and are interested in actually DOING something about it.

Let's either do something or dismiss it to the fact that nobody's willing to. I'd prefer to do rather than complain. Most times, I find myself in the minority. Is that the case here?
       Post #: 1

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 5:05:57 PM   
Crashem


 

Posts: 2221
Joined: 8/15/2002
From: Jewett, NY,
Status: offline 		What do you want to do?

You said you have been contemplating this for a few weeks. Yet you propose no solution other then to mention a "grassroots" type organization. Grass is made up of blades and it seems to me you'd be blade one So whats your plan?

(in reply to WilsonFlyer)
       Post #: 2

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 5:12:19 PM   
WilsonFlyer


 

Posts: 522
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Wilson, NC, USA
Status: offline 		I don't have a formal plan yet... and I'm not going to until I can guage what support for such a replacement organization might be. I'm running it up the flagpole so to say to see if anybody salutes or if everybody'd just as soon continue to complain and do nothing about it BUT complain. If that's the case, there's no need for any plan. If there is a need for such an organization, I'd just be willing to bet you that some ideas will come out of this thread. If they don't, the AMA must be doing everything right so the complaints are bogus to begin with.

BTW... I have had a couple of investigatory talks with two major US insurance carriers to investigate potential interest in coverage similar to that provided by the AMA. It is still very early in the "talks" stage but it is underway.

(in reply to Crashem)
       Post #: 3

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 5:22:42 PM   
Crashem


 

Posts: 2221
Joined: 8/15/2002
From: Jewett, NY,
Status: offline
quote:

I don't have a formal plan yet... and I'm not going to until I can guage what support for such a replacement organization might be. I'm running it up the flagpole so to say to see if anybody salutes or if everybody'd just as soon continue to complain and do nothing about it BUT complain.


Not trying to be a smartalec but untill you have some type of plan either formal or informal you have nothing to run up the flag pole for people to salute. You're basically asking people to endorse an idea with no "meat"

How about coming up with a mission statement or vision statement for your new orginization??

You're basically saying the AMA is bad so lets replace it yet you provide no description of the type of organization that you envision as its replacement. If you want buy in and a "grassroots" movement you need to at least provide an inclination as to the direction of your new organization


< Message edited by Crashem -- 11/19/2003 5:23:31 PM >

(in reply to WilsonFlyer)
       Post #: 4

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 5:25:38 PM   
Mike in DC


 

Posts: 935
Joined: 8/14/2003
From: Washington, DC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LearningMan
Maybe it's time for a new grass-roots ORGANIZATION by the people and not for the benefit of a buncha prima-donas egos.


I don't want to discourage your enthusiasm, but I would really suggest a quick reality check. By "the people", I assume you are talking about the couple of dozen or so RCU members who regularly post in the AMA forum? Not really a very big group, and to my eyes, they seem to have a much higher prima-donna to individual ratio than certainly the AMA.

On the one side, you have Dave Brown, the EC, and a bunch of other people who have decades in the sport and the experience and dedication and the proven ability to run a large association. Aligned with them, I'd guess, are hundreds of board members of AMA clubs. On the other side, you have 30 or so RCU members who can hardly post a dozen comments on a subject before they degenerate into name calling and insults.

GOOD LUCK to you with your new organization!

(in reply to WilsonFlyer)
       Post #: 5

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 5:33:16 PM   
Mike in DC


 

Posts: 935
Joined: 8/14/2003
From: Washington, DC, USA
Status: offline 		LearningMan, do you belong to an AMA chartered club? If so, I highly recommend you start your reality check there. Stand up in a meeting. The first question to ask is, "How many people participate in RCU?". My guess is that the answer will be, "Huh?", but I could be wrong, so I'd like to hear the results of your experiment. Then, make the statement that you're thinking of starting a new organization, because the AMA doesn't do anything for them but take their money (same introduction in your post #1). See how many people yell "Huzzah!", "You go boy!", etc. Compare that with how many folks just look at you with a strange expression. Let us know the results.

Believe me, there is a lot more to grass roots than posting a message on RCU.

(in reply to Mike in DC)
       Post #: 6

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 6:07:45 PM   
taxman232ex



Posts: 149
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: East Coast,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike in DC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LearningMan
Maybe it's time for a new grass-roots ORGANIZATION by the people and not for the benefit of a buncha prima-donas egos.


I don't want to discourage your enthusiasm, but I would really suggest a quick reality check. By "the people", I assume you are talking about the couple of dozen or so RCU members who regularly post in the AMA forum? Not really a very big group, and to my eyes, they seem to have a much higher prima-donna to individual ratio than certainly the AMA.

On the one side, you have Dave Brown, the EC, and a bunch of other people who have decades in the sport and the experience and dedication and the proven ability to run a large association. Aligned with them, I'd guess, are hundreds of board members of AMA clubs. On the other side, you have 30 or so RCU members who can hardly post a dozen comments on a subject before they degenerate into name calling and insults.

GOOD LUCK to you with your new organization!


I agree that RCU represents a miniscule portion of actual AMA membership, but I have to ask exactly what DB and the EC's experience brings to the table. Does it take experience to ostrasize the SIGs that are on the cutting edge of the hobby? Like it or not, jets, helis, turbines, etc. bring a lot of new technologies to the forefront of the hobby and eventually it all trickles down to the average modeler. Composite airframes, digital servos with over 200 oz/in. of torque, lithium batteries, etc are all here as a result of the fringe striving and working for better products, yet DB seems hellbent on over regulating all of these areas. How does DB's pattern experience from the 70's translate to modelling in 2003? How does the EC's experience translate into understanding the true dangers with turbines? How does their business experience translate when they don't even seem to be able to negotiate decent insurance policies?

Experience just for the sake of experience doesn't mean squat. Experience with proven results is what matters.

Do the EC and DB even consider actual hard data when making decisions or is it all willy nilly and based on perceptions and emotions? I can tell you what my perception is. Why don't they address these issues.

They have the perfect forums via RCU and MA to do so, but the only correspondence we get in MA is garbage regarding FF and control line. Why does a 170k membership association cater to paper and tissue modellers? That is my perception. Why won't DB come out of his ivory tower and address these issues - have some balls instead of woring behind the scenes and foaming at the mouth when his shills aka EC don't do what he wants.

I have to say with all the things I despise about AMA, it would be quite a venture to replace it or offer a comparable organization. There are a lot of issues to address and I have a loose knit roadmap od what I feel needs to be done along with an organizational structure necessary to accomplish it.

I can unveil my plan soon if anyone is actually interested. My one main stubling block is through what medium do you reach all of your possible members - how do you do that effectively - how do you convince them that your deal is better than AMA. Those questions need answers and resolution. It is something open to discussion.

I can tell you one thing. It is going to be one of my primary goals in life to do away with DB;s AMA, and I will approach it in two ways. Unseat him from his throne or have a hand in a rival organization that has the foresight and management to crush whaty is now known as the AMA.

Taxman

(in reply to Mike in DC)
       Post #: 7

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 6:18:12 PM   
nascarjoe


 

Posts: 287
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: Olcott, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Why not join UMA...just in protest of AMA? http://www.unitedmodelers.com/

nascarjoe

(in reply to WilsonFlyer)
       Post #: 8

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 6:47:37 PM   
ballgunner



Posts: 2109
Joined: 2/1/2003
From: Payson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I said in another post that I would stop replying to anything in the AMA forum because of the name calling and personal insults that are to say the least superfluous and totally useless for furthering any type of cause. This one I can't let pass. Learning Man you missed your chance a few years back when the organizers of Sport Flyers attempted to scuttle AMA for what are basically the same "reasons" that make you so unhappy. The best way to change any organization is from the inside not by replacing it with some untried ideas that are generated on a lonely night in the shop. Make yourself heard by becoming a part of the AMA administration. If you have a reasonable program that is well thought out you will have the support of the majority of the membership. If you are a loner that just complains for what ever reason you will still have the benefits of RC frequencies that AMA has spent many years protecting and it won't cost you a dime. If you can get personal liability insurance for less please do and then let the rest of us know about it or better yet tell the EC and I assure you that they will pursue it. I first joined AMA in 1936. It cost a whole dollar which was about the equivalent of todays dues in purchasing power. The best engines cost $16.95 but there were many for less. Sport Flyers tried to do what you are suggesting. Check back and find out how many modelers thought it was a good idea. When you have investigated it thoroughly it will save a lot of space in your inbox that will be used by a few other malcontents. I will be the last to say that AMA is perfect. It has taken a long time to get where it is. Ben Franklin said "Experience keeps a bitter school but fools will learn in no other and seldom in that". Learn from the past and save yourself some grief.

(in reply to nascarjoe)
       Post #: 9

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 7:06:33 PM   
taxman232ex



Posts: 149
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: East Coast,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ballgunner

I said in another post that I would stop replying to anything in the AMA forum because of the name calling and personal insults that are to say the least superfluous and totally useless for furthering any type of cause. This one I can't let pass. Learning Man you missed your chance a few years back when the organizers of Sport Flyers attempted to scuttle AMA for what are basically the same "reasons" that make you so unhappy. The best way to change any organization is from the inside not by replacing it with some untried ideas that are generated on a lonely night in the shop. Make yourself heard by becoming a part of the AMA administration. If you have a reasonable program that is well thought out you will have the support of the majority of the membership. If you are a loner that just complains for what ever reason you will still have the benefits of RC frequencies that AMA has spent many years protecting and it won't cost you a dime. If you can get personal liability insurance for less please do and then let the rest of us know about it or better yet tell the EC and I assure you that they will pursue it. I first joined AMA in 1936. It cost a whole dollar which was about the equivalent of todays dues in purchasing power. The best engines cost $16.95 but there were many for less. Sport Flyers tried to do what you are suggesting. Check back and find out how many modelers thought it was a good idea. When you have investigated it thoroughly it will save a lot of space in your inbox that will be used by a few other malcontents. I will be the last to say that AMA is perfect. It has taken a long time to get where it is. Ben Franklin said "Experience keeps a bitter school but fools will learn in no other and seldom in that". Learn from the past and save yourself some grief.


For me, Insurance isn't the issue. I have over 2m in coverage that would have to be exhausted before AMA has to step up. AMA is out of touch.

(in reply to ballgunner )
       Post #: 10

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 7:50:53 PM   
ballgunner



Posts: 2109
Joined: 2/1/2003
From: Payson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Taxman I too have 2 mil personal liability. Check your last statement and see what you are paying for it. The reason for the large coverage on my part is the tendency of ambulance chasers to cry in front of a jury and insure multimillion $ settlements. Your insurance company will provide an attorney to defend you so that they won't lose money. Most of the gigantic awards given to sob sisters are usally greatly reduced on judicial review which I believe is the reason for suing for nothing less than several millions. Having taught Peace Officers Specialized Training (POST) on the subject of law I keep fairly current on that subject. If you are accused or sued for anything ask for a non-jury trial. The chances of a trained judge giving you an interpretation of the law instead of being swayed by the tears of an irresponsible witness are certainly more in your favor. I'm not qualified to give anyone legal advice but I do have enough experience to form my own opinions. When the newspapers announce a multimillion bucks settlement they will never tell you what the actual final sum came to. Unfortunately the initial announcement gives a lot of people the idea that a lawsuit (or the lottery) is the easy way to a fat retirement income.

(in reply to taxman232ex)
       Post #: 11

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 8:01:01 PM   
taxman232ex



Posts: 149
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: East Coast,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ballgunner

Taxman I too have 2 mil personal liability. Check your last statement and see what you are paying for it. The reason for the large coverage on my part is the tendency of ambulance chasers to cry in front of a jury and insure multimillion $ settlements. Your insurance company will provide an attorney to defend you so that they won't lose money. Most of the gigantic awards given to sob sisters are usally greatly reduced on judicial review which I believe is the reason for suing for nothing less than several millions. Having taught Peace Officers Specialized Training (POST) on the subject of law I keep fairly current on that subject. If you are accused or sued for anything ask for a non-jury trial. The chances of a trained judge giving you an interpretation of the law instead of being swayed by the tears of an irresponsible witness are certainly more in your favor. I'm not qualified to give anyone legal advice but I do have enough experience to form my own opinions. When the newspapers announce a multimillion bucks settlement they will never tell you what the actual final sum came to. Unfortunately the initial announcement gives a lot of people the idea that a lawsuit (or the lottery) is the easy way to a fat retirement income.



I do know a great deal about insurance and the law. I used to work for one of the largest if not the largest insurance comany in the US. It was my job to settle claims, and I have 4 years of doing so which included arbitrations and actual court room proceedings. I had one of the highest settlement rates in my unit. I am speaking from experience. I also have plenty of professional business and legal experience to back up my claims. I am not shooting from the hip. I am voicing true concerns against an organization that I am a prt of and feel that the leadership has taken a turn for the worse many moons ago.

It also does not matter what I am paying for it. AMA provides an additional 2m after I have exhausted my current limits. A little known ins fact from my home state is that if the insurer has the opportunity to settle within policy limits and does not and a judgement is passed down that surpasses policy limits, the insurer is going to be stuck with the excess judgement. So I would say that the AMA will never have to worry about covering me, because any negotiator worth anything should be able to settle a claim within my limits if he knows what he is doing.

So again, it is not the insurance for me. I am sick of the lack of good leadership!!

Taxman

< Message edited by taxman232ex -- 11/19/2003 8:03:21 PM >

(in reply to ballgunner )
       Post #: 12

RE: Time for a NEW Organization/Structure? - 11/19/2003 10:56:57 PM