Oil, and the big question!  
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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> RC Fuels >> Oil, and the big question!
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Oil, and the big question! - 5/9/2002 4:48:31 AM   
rsieminski



Posts: 1406
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Sarasota, FL, USA
Status: offline 		O.K. 2 stroke model engine fuel has to have 2 components: methanol and oil. The older crowd insists on castor, for valid reasons. The younger crowd insists on synthetic, for valid reasons. The mfg's suggest high oil content (18-20+), for liability issues: If you buy the cheapest fuel on the market, it probably contains the lowest quality oil known to man. But maybe if you have enough of it it will protect the engine. (I think this might have been in the faq?)
5-15% nitro is good for added effeciency, reliable idle, sm power boost, easier needle adj., etc.

Less % of oil means more % of burnable fuel, and less oil on my plane. Too little and my engine runs to hot, corrodes, wears faster, etc. and dies a premature death.

Here's the question: If you use like 50/50 high quality systhetic/castor, what % of oil? After all 10% nitro, 20% oil, 70% methanol --- ~$4.20 for nitro, ~$7.70 for oil and ~$1.96 for methanol, oil is the most expensive, if you can safely use less of a high quality oil.... less is sprayed on my plane, and more burnable fuel goes in the carb. So, how much high quality oil is needed?
Thanks,
--Rick
       Post #: 1

Oil, and the big question! - 5/10/2002 8:20:44 AM   
rsieminski



Posts: 1406
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Sarasota, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Isn't this the fuel forum?

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 2

Oil, and the big question! - 5/10/2002 4:46:06 PM   
Ed Smith


 

Posts: 2807
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Status: online 		What is it you are trying to do?

Save money on fuel,

protect your engine from corrosion and wear,

Keep your airplane clean.

You cannot have it all.

Ed S

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 3

oil - 5/10/2002 6:02:51 PM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		I also belived that less oil of a high quality would do the trick as well a regular oil at higher amounts. But after Racing R/C gas cars for several years I changed my mind, Car fuels Like Blue Thunder, Odonnel, Wildcat and Byrons use good quality oils, but at 14% oil and as low as 9% the car engines didn't last long and the fuel was 25% higher in cost, BUT they only used small amounts of Caster. After switching to regular aircraft fuel in my Cars I was getting twice the engine life or more , and enough Power for my Skills, So less oil better quality is not a sure thing by any means, although the Manufactureres recommendation for oil is partially a CYA I am convienced they are valid no matter what fuel it is.
NOW you may have something with the 50/50 mix of caster, I believe SIG still offers this fuel , And there is only one real way to find out and it may cost you an Engine. But They don't offer it in low Percentages as far as I know. I do believe the Car Engines would have lasted longer if the Caster amount was increased, in fact Bluethunder did offer a higher Caster fuel at one time made for those who wanted to get every bit of power and rpm they could get.

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 4

Oil, and the big question! - 5/11/2002 3:46:06 AM   
rsieminski



Posts: 1406
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Sarasota, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Ed Smith,
Just trying to find out the optimum amt of good quality oil content needed in fuel. Not enough and the motor dies a premature death, too much and it's wasted, .... you probably know more than I. What's the optimum amt of oil to run, it's expensive, so if you don't need 20%, why blow it out the muffler?
--Rick

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 5

Cheap Oil - 5/11/2002 4:37:01 PM   
Ed Smith


 

Posts: 2807
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Status: online 		Here is a starting point for you.

I am quoting this directly from a 1 qt can of Klotz Techniplate Chemical Racing Lubricant. I purchased a case of this some years ago when I mixed my own Formula 1 (High nitro) racing fuel.

Directions for two stroke engines. "For racing, competition or extreme loading conditions add contents of this can to 3 U.S. gallons of gasoline or alcohol"

This mix works out to an oil content of 7.69%.

We will now sit back and listen to the "Forum experts" argue with Klotz!

Ed S

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 6

Klotz - 5/11/2002 5:14:31 PM   
Homebrewer



Posts: 1335
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Aren't you comparing apple to oranges? 2 stroke RC glow engines are much different than 2 stroke gas engines.

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 7

bearings - 5/12/2002 4:11:44 AM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		Were I believe the engines they refer to Have Ball bearing Con rods where our glow have bushings. I have a bottle of Klotz Super Techniplat with 20% Caster KL100. It says and I Quote

" 2 Stroke Glow Engines Mix at 15 to 18%" 18% is 23oz per gallon.

"Racing Kart Engines Mix at 16-1 to 20-1 " 16-1 is 8 oz per gallon , 24 oz per 3 gallons , almost a quart

It also says-

" 4 stroke Glow Engines Mix at 5 to 10%"

Which I totally disagree with .

So I guess were back where we started.

< Message edited by Dave Bowles -- May 11 2002 11:17PM >

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 8

Oil, and the big question! - 5/12/2002 7:06:53 AM   
Fuelman


 

Posts: 1009
Joined: 12/31/2001
From: Jordan, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Outstanding question to ponder.

You want to have a well protected engine, we all do
You want a lighter mess on your plane, we all do
You don't want to be paying for oil you don't think you need, we all do.

I am a manufacturer of glow fuel. I hear these questions on occasion. My initial thought is:
My new truck's owners manual says to use a particular SAE type of oil and to use 6 quarts when changing it. I know that they are probably protecting themselves and that the engine will probably last just fine on 4 quarts. Do I use 4 quarts at an oil change instead of 6 just to save a couple bucks? Or can I push the limits and save another $2 and use three? I'm not going to, are you?
Same thing goes with your weed eater, lawn mower etc..


About the messy planes. Try to notice the mess difference of a 20% oil fuel (say an 80/20 blend) and an 18% oil fuel (same 80/20) after a tank of fuel. Most people can not notice the difference. Now if you compare the messes of a 20% oil blend and a 10% oil blend it is noticable. But you'll notice a difference too in how long your engine may last.

Using a high quality oil is lesser amounts to save money.
OK- without starting a major controversy: What is regular oil, what is high quality oil? I assume we're talking synthetics here?

All of us that manufacture glow fuel use very good synthetic lubricants, some are a little different than others but they are all very good.
There are some truly incredible synthetic lubricants out there that will probably do what you intend- in fact I have experimented with several of them. Problem is, they cost so much more than the very good oils that you would end up paying more for your fuel even if it had less than half of the oil you are burning now!!!

The oils in glow fuels are more than just something to make it slippery inside the engine. They also carry away a lot of heat and provide an impact cushion between parts. No matter how slippery an oil is, if there are not enough oil molecules between moving parts, they will wear much more rapidly (connecting rod journal and wrist pin take a pounding). Believe me there is a point of diminishing returns when lowering oil content, the MTBF (mean time between failures) will go off the chart once you reach a certain point. Every engine design has a point where; the engine manufacturers determined less oil is not good for longevity.


Just my thoughts folks.

Fuelman


_____________________________

Fuelman
Cooper Fuels LLC

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       Post #: 9

Fuel - 5/12/2002 7:28:42 PM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		I often asked why Fuel Manufacturers put less oil in the R/C racing Car fuels. And the same answer comes up everytime from them. Car fuels are blended for Rapid Acceleration, Instant throttle response and High RPM. There is just enough oil to make it last threw several long races, Car guys usually don't care as much about engine life as they do about Power and acceleration , Speacialy in off road.

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       Post #: 10

Oil, and the big question! - 5/12/2002 8:07:57 PM   
Elwood



Posts: 1512
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Wayne, NJ,
Status: offline 		I take offense to that last post. I expect at least 2 gallons out of an engine for my GT!



_____________________________

Born in the U.S.A.......Not quite as long ago as Art!!!!!!!

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Oil, and the big question! - 5/13/2002 7:42:01 AM   
Fuelman


 

Posts: 1009
Joined: 12/31/2001
From: Jordan, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Elwood,
I can get about a gallon and a half out of a high performance 15 car engine on 10% oil, no matter what the castor and synthetic breakdown is. All castor to all synthetic and everywhere in between; results are about the same.
Same engine, run 12% the piston and sleeve life goes up to 4 to 5 gallons.
Jump up to 19% oil, I stopped counting at ten gallons and my kids are still pounding it hard.

Funny part is I don't notice a major difference in acceleration or top end between the 10% oil and 19% oil. Certainly the non competitive drivers (mostly off road) will be best served with longevity by using a high oil fuel in the buggies.

Take your (please don't) average 46FX and run it on 10% or 12% oil buggy fuel and see how long it lasts. Well at least it won't make a mess on the plane.


Fuelman


_____________________________

Fuelman
Cooper Fuels LLC

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       Post #: 12

Car Fuel - 5/13/2002 10:07:26 AM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		Be Careful Fuel Man, The engine companys really like those rebuild sales, a piston and liner for a REX, TOP or rossi cost more than many of our complete airplane engines. If everybody started using 18% oil it would really cut into the bank, you mgiht get sued or something . LOL Anyhow , My last year of racing I used Wildcat Car fuel that was 14% oil and it worked pretty good and performed as well as anything else. At the sportsman level we normally won't notice a performace differance but as skills get better and you start racing aginst the Sponsered guys a split second of hisitation makes the differance between making a 30 foot tripple and not making it. I bet if you switched it with folks and not tell them they wouldn't notice a differance.

(in reply to rsieminski)
       Post #: 13

Oil, and the big question! - 5/13/2002 4:18:57 PM   
Elwood



Posts: 1512
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Wayne, NJ,
Status: offline 		Fuelman,

I hear ya! My .12 CX rossi is at about 1.5 gallons with 12% oil (O'Donnell). The fit is feeling a bit loose, but there still is good compression. I don't see it lasting past 3 gallons, however. Maybe if I am lucky...

Elwood

_____________________________

Born in the U.S.A.......Not quite as long ago as Art!!!!!!!

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       Post #: 14

Cars - 5/13/2002 11:08:55 PM   
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