Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no

Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (Full Version)

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MikeMayberry -> Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/21/2003 7:02:23 PM)
It has come to our attention that if loc-tite is used on the Karbonite geared servos that it will make the material brittle causing the output shaft to break. Hitec has recently switched to a 10mm screw from an 8mm to improve the strength of the output shaft but we are unsure if loc-tite played a factor in any of the other reported failures but that is now a strong possiblity. If you had a Karbonite servo output shaft failure, please post if you had used loc-tite or not so we can gather more info. In any case we have had no failures reported when using the 10mm screws. If you need to get the new screws for your Karbonite servos or have used loc-tite on them contact service@hitecrcd.com Mike.

nmking09 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/2/2005 10:59:01 PM)
Let us assume that Ford built a car that would explode if synthetic oil was used in the engine. I believe that ford would issue a recall, apology, and be certain that anyone who had purchased this car was aware of the risk. I can not believe that Hitec would allow a servo to be placed into production without proper testing. Then when faced with repeated reports of similar failures, hitec would not admit that there is a problem with the servo. This latest attempt at taking responsibility is a step in the right direction, but a very week one. There needs to be a better attempt to notify customers of the problem. If Hitec continues on this course they will continue to damage an already tarnished reputation. If you haven't already guessed I have a friend who ruined a $3,000 aircraft last weekend by using these servos. Oddly enough if we would have known about the problem sooner or you would have taken some initiative to make us aware of the problem, the plane would not have been flown and the servo would have been fixed. No harm No foul. Unfortunately, this was not the case. The only hint I have heard about the problem has come from this forum. This is inexcusable. Please let people know of the problem!!!! I am very disappointed in this company so far and will not be purchasing any Hitec products in the future and will advise my friends to do the same. If Hitec didn't test these servos, what else haven't they tested??? Nmking09

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 12:05:16 AM)
First off, sorry to hear your friend lost his model. What was the specific failure mode of the servo that contributed to the demise of the model? Please note that Product Alerts were passed about and this specifc alert was originally placed in this Forum two years ago. The problem specific with the original 8mm screw length was addressed after the first release of the Karbonites and 10mm screws were offered free of charge to all that requested same. All subsequent inventory was provided with 10mm screws; again this was two years ago. Also note that Loctite is WELL known to damage plastic, any plastics. The fact the modelers would utilize a thread locking product intended for metallic components on metal and plastic components is NO short coming of Hitec or its products. Perhaps if users of these products read the applicable notes and applications provided by the manufacturers these problems as such would be minimized. From Loctites Threadlocker data sheet: This product is not normally recommended for use on brass or copper surfaces or on plastics (particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility of the product with such substrates. FWIW; Hitec's Karbonite geared servos are not replacements for metal geared servos. If the model manufacturer recommends metal geared servos there is probably a reason for same.

nmking09 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 2:14:33 AM)
While it is true that placing a note in the forum was a good idea, it would seem that after going 2 years without a reply someone would think of trying to notify the consumer in a different manner. Would a slip of paper in the servo box stating not to use locktite with these servos, that this servo is not recommended for high vibration environments, and that this servo is not recommended for use in aircraft over 12 pounds, without being ganged be too much to ask? In the mean time possibly notifying your distributors of this message would be a much appreciated action. I know that attempting to notify the consumer of information you believe that they should inherently be aware of sounds like an unnecessary action, but I will refer you to the case of the woman who sued Mc.Donalds because her coffee was hot. Unlike that case, it would be likely that a person purchasing a +150 in-oz servo would expect it capable of handling the environment that a 150 in-oz servo would be used in, as in an aileron servo on a gas aircraft. If this is an unacceptable application placing a simple warning on or in the box could possibly save someone their aircraft, hitec the finances of loosing another 10 customers, and would be a much needed positive step toward customer relations. Yes, locktite was most likely the failure mode of the servo. Seeing the date at which you placed the 10mm screws in the servos it is highly likely that this servo contained the 10mm screw. The manufacturers actually recommended the use of this particular servo with their aircraft. The fact that after over two years of complaints, this servo is still being produced without proper application data, is the real tragedy. Nmking09

nIgHthAwK17 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 7:29:54 PM)
This is all without mention that the friend who bought these servos did so within the last month - if it is true that Hitec has been packaging these servos with the new correct screw that would render this no longer a problem, it seems as though a recall of Hitec servos from distributor shelves was not done. You quoted the Loctite data sheet: "This product is not normally recommended for use on brass or copper surfaces or on plastics (particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility of the product with such substrates." Considering the fact that Karbonite is obviously a trademarked material name, which means that no one outside of Hitec knows what it is, who would think to consider it a thermoplastic? When I break out a brand new servo, I don't tend to notice, much less analyze, what kind of material its gears are made of. Just because one thinks something is common knowledge doesn't make it so... This is just evidence of corporate assumption on the part of the customer - that's a BIG NO NO. Another argument - if the aforementioned friend has only entered the hobby within the last year, what odds would you give someone else in a similar situation to search back another year's worth of posts to find out that Hitec servos aren't quite up to par... Needless to say, I'm disappointed.

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 9:59:28 PM)
Why would you use a thread-locker on anything plastic and or nylon that was intended for use with metallic components? If you’re concerned about securing the screws many use a small dab of Shoe-Goo, PFM, white glue, canopy glue or similar pliable plastic safe products. Do you use Loctite thread-locker's on your nylon geared servos too? Modelers that believe metal-geared servos and thread-lockers are a natural are miss-informed… Time and time again we have issue with modelers that make this mistake, in most cases these products are simply to strong and over applied causing the servo screw to be near impossible to remove. Hitec advertises and notes on their website that Karbonite is composite mixture. Composites are forms or derivatives of plastic. Unless you buy metal geared servos you know they are comprised of plastic gear-train variants. Loctite thread-locker and similar products are simply not designed for anything other than metallic components (look on the data sheet). It may not be common knowledge to some I suspect but those in the RC Helicopter and Car arena are well aware of same. Its modeler oversight that causes and affects the use of inappropriate products, not a manufacturer defect. While I’m not surprised one would mistakenly use thread-lockers on materials not intended for same, it surprises me they would blame the manufacturer for their mistake cry foul and suggest the product is inferior and should be admonished from existence... There is nothing inherently wrong with the Karbonite material; it simply like most plastic products is not impervious to thread-locker adhesives.

Maudib -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 10:16:30 PM)
I just posted similar info on another thread. Nowhere in the instructions do HiTec direct the enduser to use ANY threadlocker. Use of such compounds is at the discretion of the user. No argument can be made that "we didn't know they were plastic" as in the same vein "you didn't know they were metal" either. In original and current marketing of the Karbonite geared servos they state "composite geartrain technology". They also state: "Providing up to 4X the strength of standard nylon gears" possibly eluding that Karbonite gears are some form of "advanced" nylon gears enhanced with some form of composite materials. It is without question they are not metal, and that alone contradicts threadlocker insrtuctions that state "Intended for metal to metal" applications. It is fair to say it is common knowledge that you do NOT use threadlocker on plastic geared servos. Thruth is MOST people think it is because the screws bite better without any compound added. But in reality it is because the compound does in fact change the attributes of plastic, and in the case of servos can cause failure. So for an enduser to assume it's safe to use threadlocker on Karbonite gears when not directed to do so simply doesn't warrant HiTec's assumption of responsibility. It never entered my mind to use threadlocker on the course thread plastic servo screw supplied and that the servo gears were anything BUT an enhanced plastic based gearset. That was MY assumption and could just have easily been wrong... hwoever it would have been MY mistake NOT HiTecs.

Reehnegie -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/3/2005 10:56:36 PM)
I must correct you on the definition of composites. A composite material does not imply plastic! A composite material is one that consist of more than one material type. This could be any combination of anything. Mud and clay....microballons and epoxy. More often than not, it does indeed refers to plastic like materials. I've never read an article that suggest using shoo-gue, white glue, etc... to secure a servo horn screw. I have however seen an article that suggest a dab of thread locker will prevent a gas aircraft from vibrating itself apart. I purchased the servos in question from !QUOT!servo-city.com!QUOT! where they list more detailed specs than HiTec does about their own product. They do not list a warning regarding plane size and application nor do they warn about possible issues involving thread locker and HiTec's Karbonite gear-trains. If HiTec included a 2!QUOT!x2!QUOT! piece of paper with each servo explaining the intended purpose of the sevo and possible issues involving thread locker then I would have never crashed my plane, because I would have returned the servos and purchased a compatible set. Not seeing the HiTecs warning about plane size, I chose this servo because I figure two 171oz. of torque should be more than necessary to control a 30% plane in the roll direction, especially when the manufacturer recommends 130oz. Why doesn't HiTec include a warning with each servo? They include an application guide that says nothing about Karbonite servos to my knowledge. (I could be mistaken) I've read the sheet a few times and nowhere does it discuss Karbonite's aircraft size/application restrictions. What aggravates me is that I lost an model because HiTec's lack of motivation to inform its consumers of a problem that they addressed in 2003. Plane manufactures include amendments to their kits/instructions all the time. (i.e. unforeseen issues with balancing, misalignment of pre-drilled holes, etc...) Why hasn't HiTec forked over ~$.05 a servo to get the word out?

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 12:17:51 AM)
Reehnegie I'm real sorry you lost your model and I understand your frustrated and at a loss for the time and money invested. My comments on composites in quotes "Composites are forms or derivatives of plastic". says it all IMO... FWIW; so is nylon. I suppose it would be possible for Hitec to provide additional info in regard to Karbonite servos do and don’ts, problem is most probably wouldn’t read the note. So were still facing a dilemma of sorts. I have suggested that Hitec consider providing this additional info in this regard. Hitec’s website has the same information and more than listed at Servo City, additionally there are not any of the atypical mistakes often noted by others. Simply click on the MANUAL or SPECIFICATIONS button on each servo page depicted. Hitec suggests that modelers be aware of the model specific use and over all weight too. Do other manufacturers include said notes about not using Loctiite ot thread-lockers on their nylon geared units? I suspect OEM's assume modelers no better or at the very least will read the data sheet provided with the thread locking products. Hitec does not suggest on their info sheet to use any product to lock the screw in place. As the end user you made the decision to utilize a product that is not compatible with Hitec's and others composite/resin/nylon/Karrbonite gear-trains. Unfortunately it was a costly lesson.

lrb75 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 12:58:06 AM)
Not to add fuel to the fire here, but I alway thought that the info about the screw length and loctite on karbonite gears would have been helpful to add as a sticky at the top of this forum. By the way I have been using several of the 5475 servos for about two years with no problems.

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 2:47:29 AM)
lrb This specific thread was originally at the top as a "sticky" and locked to not receive responses. Not sure what happened and it fell off, I realized this when the first inquiry or post came up yesterday but decided to allow it roll along for the time being. Later I'll place a new sticky or edit this thread and put it back at the top of the Forum.

nmking09 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 3:33:09 AM)
Bottom line, either the specific make up of Karbonite needs to be made public, or Hitec needs to place a disclaimer in the box. Not only is the lock tite a problem but !QUOT!Karbonite is not good for high vibration applications, or applications for aircraft over 12lbs!QUOT!, hitec customer service. If you can tell me when I would need a servo capable of producing 150 in-oz in a plane less than 12lbs, that is not a gasser ( high vibration ), please do. There is no way that you can assume that composites are a form of plastic. Plastic is a petroleum derivative. Fiberglass and carbon are considered composites and are not comprised, and do not consist petroleum derivatives. So how can you tell me that something that sounds like it is made out of graphite is a plastic??? Like I said in the first line either make the composition of Karbonite known or add note stating not to use loc-tite. To the Hitec people: Dont you think that placing a slip of paper inside the box would be cheaper than repeatedly replacing servo gears. Not to mention the thousands of dollars that are lost due to only one club boycotting hitec servos. Admit that the customer is not as smart as you are and place a slip of paper in the stupid box. As for this being a sticky, it seems a bit strange placing a sticky that asks for responses! Nmking09, hitec boycotter, until further notice

carrellh -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 5:27:13 AM)
sorry...

Reehnegie -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 6:07:59 AM)
Not to beat a dead horse, but once again you are assuming that HiTec is marketing Karbonite as a nylon geared servo. I believe that they say is it is four times stronger than nylon. This doesn't mean it is a new form of nylon four time stronger than the old. For instance, Dupont advertised for a while that Kevlar(Aramid) is nine times stronger than steal. You as well as I now that these materials are not similar in chemical composition. Yet they share the same material characteristics/qualities. That I know of OEM's have not included specific warnings regarding the use of threadlocker on nylon geared servos. Please do not assume that I use threadlocker on all of my servos. I think you may have taken my statement out of context. I have owned several great plane ARFs and in each box, I have found at least one additional note warning or instructing the consumer of a possible conflict with the products original assembly instructions or purpose. These notes were not included in the original kit, but added once great planes discovered a discrepency usually found by modelers like me and you. This is the message I was trying to convey in my last post. Sorry for the confusion.

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 3:06:34 PM)
I mentioned this previously why are modelers using thread-lockers on servos to begin with, do any OEM manufacturers suggest that you do same? If the instructions don’t suggest that we use thread-lockers maybe there is a reason for same. It would be a daunting task for OEM’s to address in a note every plausible misapplication of others products and sundry components that could be used together with their respective products. I’m not assuming anyone is using thread-locker on nylon geared servos (I hope not), I simply am suggesting that if you didn’t feel the need to do so with nylon geared units why would you with Hitec’s Karbonite gear-train? Furthermore why would you assume Loctite Thread-locker was applicable to Hitec’s composite Karbonite gear-train? From a major Composite Product supplier: “Composites today, or more specifically, fiber-reinforced plastics, were first produced about 50 years ago.” While technically the term composite can apply to any combination of individual materials, we will focus on the design, manufacture and use of fibers, primarily glass, that have been impregnated with a plastic matrix resin. There are many applications for high power servos other than gassers. As we suggest the Karbonites are applicable to gassers paired in multiples, many use them singularly on elevators and rudders too. Karbonite is stronger than nylon, but like many products that are stronger than others we find they are often more brittle. Hitec often replaces service components as a customer service courtesy free of charge without the assumption of liability, nothing more is implied or offered. Forum users are encouraged to post their personal findings by creating there own Post with its own descriptive title. The “sticky” stays at the top of the Forum, this provides an outlet for notices and information.

Geistware -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 3:25:51 PM)
People I don't get it. Karbonite is NOT metal. Locktite is for metal to metal. Since Karbonite is not metal, don't use Locktite! Somewhere down this road, we need to think. Everything in life cannot be defined as prohibitive or permitted, this is impossible. This information came out 2 years ago because someone attributed that being stronger implied, like metal. This was a wrong assumption. Hitec stated this. Now we want to argue that they didn't say specifically not to use locktite. Hitec also didn't say that abuse would not be treated as a manufactures defect but we all know that it isn't. Lets think before we go down these paths.

MikeMayberry -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/4/2005 8:11:02 PM)
Noted about the warning... We will look into making this happen in the future so others do not suffer the same fate. It is unfortunate when any model crashes and I can understand your frustraition. While we cannot replace the model, we would be willing to replace the gears in the servos for you at no charge. Please read the following with an open mind as it us just an observation. The situation is such that you used loctite on a servo that does not tell you to do so, but since it didn't say not to, it is Hitecs fault your model crashed. At what point does the modeler take responsibility for their actions? If you feel compelled to boycott us for this reason that is your choice... but realize we are here to help, and if there was any question about the use of loctite on this product you could have always posted the question... searched for the info... or called or e-mailed us. I've seen too many times where the modeler uses a servo for example that is not suitable for a particular application and then states that it was the servos fault the plane crashed. Again... We are very sorry to hear about this situation and will do our best to better educate the users that loctite is not to be used with Karbonite geared servos. Mike.

nmking09 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/5/2005 4:31:39 AM)
Thanks, Mike. That's all I wanted to hear. I was not looking for hitec to assume responsibility for planes crashing. I was simply asking hitec to make a more concerted effort to inform the consumer of the proper application for this servo. Thanks for hearing me out. Nmking09 now a little more satisfied with hitec.

Reehnegie -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (11/10/2005 8:14:32 PM)
Mike, I spoke with an individual at Hi-Tec named Mike about two weeks ago about the servo failure. He offered to send me a new set of gears for the servos, but I opted to send the servos in and have them checked out. Is there anyway for me to get the servo gears sent to me so I can replace them? I don't have a problem sending them in, I just do not want it to take forever to get them back. What do I need to do?

Digger44 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (2/4/2006 4:16:09 AM)
Wow, why didn't I see this post before I purchased the 6985HB servo's? Anyway I'm glad I did. I planned on using them in a 27% Midwest Extra that will be around 16lbs. or so. These servo's provide 172 in.oz. of torque. I guess I need to send them back. What would you recommend as a replacement? 2 on elevator 2 on rudder 1ea aileron 1 throttle 1 choke I really thought these were the right servo's for the plane, I,m afraid to use the karbonite gears now, especially in my first gas plane. Thanks, Bob

nmking09 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (2/4/2006 6:43:29 PM)
The metal gear version I think would be your best option of course you could probably get by with them on the throttle and choke.

Digger44 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (2/5/2006 12:30:50 AM)
From my previous post, This is what I think I should do for replacement servo's, post your thoughts/ suggestions. 2 split on elevator - 5925MG 2 ganged on rudder "keep the 6985's as there will be two on the surface" 1ea aileron- 5945MG 1 throttle- 925MG 1 choke- 645MG Does this seem like overkill and/or appropriate for this application? Thanks, Bob

mglavin -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (2/7/2006 1:11:18 AM)
Bob, Your setup sounds fine to me... However I would use a standard/basic servo for choke. While the 6985's will work fine on rudder a single 5955 would to at less expense and match programming the servos is not required.

Digger44 -> RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no (2/7/2006 2:51:26 AM)
If I do a pull-Pull on the rudder the 5955 would probably be great, however I am thinking I might need the weight of two servo's in the rear for the rudder to ofset the motor in which case the 5955 might be overkill paired up? May be I can wait until I get the weight requirements for the tail before deciding on the rudder servo's. I do already have a spare standard for the choke. Thanks, Bob

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