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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros >> Radio Manufacturer Direct Support >> Hitec/MultiPlex Radios- Ask Hitec Customer Service >> Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no
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Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/21/2003 7:02:23 PM   
MikeMayberry



Posts: 2807
Joined: 1/15/2002
From: Poway, CA, USA
Status: offline 		It has come to our attention that if loc-tite is used on the Karbonite geared servos that it will make the material brittle causing the output shaft to break. Hitec has recently switched to a 10mm screw from an 8mm to improve the strength of the output shaft but we are unsure if loc-tite played a factor in any of the other reported failures but that is now a strong possiblity.

If you had a Karbonite servo output shaft failure, please post if you had used loc-tite or not so we can gather more info.

In any case we have had no failures reported when using the 10mm screws. If you need to get the new screws for your Karbonite servos or have used loc-tite on them contact service@hitecrcd.com

Mike.

< Message edited by MikeMayberry -- 11/22/2003 12:30:48 AM >
       Post #: 1

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/2/2005 10:59:01 PM   
nmking09



Posts: 375
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Champaign, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Let us assume that Ford built a car that would explode if synthetic oil was used in the engine. I believe that ford would issue a recall, apology, and be certain that anyone who had purchased this car was aware of the risk. I can not believe that Hitec would allow a servo to be placed into production without proper testing. Then when faced with repeated reports of similar failures, hitec would not admit that there is a problem with the servo. This latest attempt at taking responsibility is a step in the right direction, but a very week one. There needs to be a better attempt to notify customers of the problem. If Hitec continues on this course they will continue to damage an already tarnished reputation.

If you haven't already guessed I have a friend who ruined a $3,000 aircraft last weekend by using these servos. Oddly enough if we would have known about the problem sooner or you would have taken some initiative to make us aware of the problem, the plane would not have been flown and the servo would have been fixed. No harm No foul. Unfortunately, this was not the case. The only hint I have heard about the problem has come from this forum. This is inexcusable. Please let people know of the problem!!!!

I am very disappointed in this company so far and will not be purchasing any Hitec products in the future and will advise my friends to do the same.

If Hitec didn't test these servos, what else haven't they tested???

Nmking09

_____________________________

Don't fly what you can't afford to buy two of !!!

(in reply to MikeMayberry)
       Post #: 2

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 12:05:16 AM   
mglavin



Posts: 5200
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Elverta, CA, USA
Status: offline 		First off, sorry to hear your friend lost his model.

What was the specific failure mode of the servo that contributed to the demise of the model?

Please note that Product Alerts were passed about and this specifc alert was originally placed in this Forum two years ago. The problem specific with the original 8mm screw length was addressed after the first release of the Karbonites and 10mm screws were offered free of charge to all that requested same. All subsequent inventory was provided with 10mm screws; again this was two years ago.

Also note that Loctite is WELL known to damage plastic, any plastics. The fact the modelers would utilize a thread locking product intended for metallic components on metal and plastic components is NO short coming of Hitec or its products. Perhaps if users of these products read the applicable notes and applications provided by the manufacturers these problems as such would be minimized.

From Loctites Threadlocker data sheet:
This product is not normally recommended for use on brass or copper surfaces or on plastics (particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility of the product with such substrates.

FWIW; Hitec's Karbonite geared servos are not replacements for metal geared servos. If the model manufacturer recommends metal geared servos there is probably a reason for same.

_____________________________

Michael Glavin
RCU Community Moderator
Hitec * Multiplex Field Representative

(in reply to nmking09)
       Post #: 3

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 2:14:33 AM   
nmking09



Posts: 375
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Champaign, IL, USA
Status: offline 		While it is true that placing a note in the forum was a good idea, it would seem that after going 2 years without a reply someone would think of trying to notify the consumer in a different manner.

Would a slip of paper in the servo box stating not to use locktite with these servos, that this servo is not recommended for high vibration environments, and that this servo is not recommended for use in aircraft over 12 pounds, without being ganged be too much to ask? In the mean time possibly notifying your distributors of this message would be a much appreciated action.


I know that attempting to notify the consumer of information you believe that they should inherently be aware of sounds like an unnecessary action, but I will refer you to the case of the woman who sued Mc.Donalds because her coffee was hot. Unlike that case, it would be likely that a person purchasing a +150 in-oz servo would expect it capable of handling the environment that a 150 in-oz servo would be used in, as in an aileron servo on a gas aircraft. If this is an unacceptable application placing a simple warning on or in the box could possibly save someone their aircraft, hitec the finances of loosing another 10 customers, and would be a much needed positive step toward customer relations.

Yes, locktite was most likely the failure mode of the servo. Seeing the date at which you placed the 10mm screws in the servos it is highly likely that this servo contained the 10mm screw. The manufacturers actually recommended the use of this particular servo with their aircraft.

The fact that after over two years of complaints, this servo is still being produced without proper application data, is the real tragedy.

Nmking09





_____________________________

Don't fly what you can't afford to buy two of !!!

(in reply to mglavin)
       Post #: 4

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 7:29:54 PM   
nIgHthAwK17



Posts: 71
Joined: 4/28/2002
From: Starkville, MS, USA
Status: offline 		This is all without mention that the friend who bought these servos did so within the last month - if it is true that Hitec has been packaging these servos with the new correct screw that would render this no longer a problem, it seems as though a recall of Hitec servos from distributor shelves was not done.

You quoted the Loctite data sheet:
"This product is not normally recommended for use on brass or copper surfaces or on plastics (particularly thermoplastic materials where stress cracking of the plastic could result). Users are recommended to confirm compatibility of the product with such substrates."

Considering the fact that Karbonite is obviously a trademarked material name, which means that no one outside of Hitec knows what it is, who would think to consider it a thermoplastic? When I break out a brand new servo, I don't tend to notice, much less analyze, what kind of material its gears are made of. Just because one thinks something is common knowledge doesn't make it so... This is just evidence of corporate assumption on the part of the customer - that's a BIG NO NO.

Another argument - if the aforementioned friend has only entered the hobby within the last year, what odds would you give someone else in a similar situation to search back another year's worth of posts to find out that Hitec servos aren't *quite* up to par...

Needless to say, I'm disappointed.


_____________________________

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Ad Astra Per Aspera

(in reply to nmking09)
       Post #: 5

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 9:59:28 PM   
mglavin



Posts: 5200
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Elverta, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Why would you use a thread-locker on anything plastic and or nylon that was intended for use with metallic components? If you’re concerned about securing the screws many use a small dab of Shoe-Goo, PFM, white glue, canopy glue or similar pliable plastic safe products. Do you use Loctite thread-locker's on your nylon geared servos too? Modelers that believe metal-geared servos and thread-lockers are a natural are miss-informed… Time and time again we have issue with modelers that make this mistake, in most cases these products are simply to strong and over applied causing the servo screw to be near impossible to remove. Hitec advertises and notes on their website that Karbonite is composite mixture. Composites are forms or derivatives of plastic.

Unless you buy metal geared servos you know they are comprised of plastic gear-train variants.

Loctite thread-locker and similar products are simply not designed for anything other than metallic components (look on the data sheet). It may not be common knowledge to some I suspect but those in the RC Helicopter and Car arena are well aware of same. Its modeler oversight that causes and affects the use of inappropriate products, not a manufacturer defect.

While I’m not surprised one would mistakenly use thread-lockers on materials not intended for same, it surprises me they would blame the manufacturer for their mistake cry foul and suggest the product is inferior and should be admonished from existence... There is nothing inherently wrong with the Karbonite material; it simply like most plastic products is not impervious to thread-locker adhesives.

_____________________________

Michael Glavin
RCU Community Moderator
Hitec * Multiplex Field Representative

(in reply to nIgHthAwK17)
       Post #: 6

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 10:16:30 PM   
Maudib



Posts: 5833
Joined: 7/16/2002
From: Ashland, KY, USA
Status: offline 		I just posted similar info on another thread.

Nowhere in the instructions do HiTec direct the enduser to use ANY threadlocker. Use of such compounds is at the discretion of the user.

No argument can be made that "we didn't know they were plastic" as in the same vein "you didn't know they were metal" either.

In original and current marketing of the Karbonite geared servos they state "composite geartrain technology". They also state: "Providing up to 4X the strength of standard nylon gears" possibly eluding that Karbonite gears are some form of "advanced" nylon gears enhanced with some form of composite materials.

It is without question they are not metal, and that alone contradicts threadlocker insrtuctions that state "Intended for metal to metal" applications.

It is fair to say it is common knowledge that you do NOT use threadlocker on plastic geared servos. Thruth is MOST people think it is because the screws bite better without any compound added. But in reality it is because the compound does in fact change the attributes of plastic, and in the case of servos can cause failure.

So for an enduser to assume it's safe to use threadlocker on Karbonite gears when not directed to do so simply doesn't warrant HiTec's assumption of responsibility.

It never entered my mind to use threadlocker on the course thread plastic servo screw supplied and that the servo gears were anything BUT an enhanced plastic based gearset. That was MY assumption and could just have easily been wrong... hwoever it would have been MY mistake NOT HiTecs.

(in reply to nIgHthAwK17)
       Post #: 7

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/3/2005 10:56:36 PM   
Reehnegie


 

Posts: 21
Joined: 3/20/2004
From: Gulf Breeze, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I must correct you on the definition of composites. A composite material does not imply plastic! A composite material is one that consist of more than one material type. This could be any combination of anything. Mud and clay....microballons and epoxy. More often than not, it does indeed refers to plastic like materials. I've never read an article that suggest using shoo-gue, white glue, etc... to secure a servo horn screw. I have however seen an article that suggest a dab of thread locker will prevent a gas aircraft from vibrating itself apart. I purchased the servos in question from !QUOT!servo-city.com!QUOT! where they list more detailed specs than HiTec does about their own product. They do not list a warning regarding plane size and application nor do they warn about possible issues involving thread locker and HiTec's Karbonite gear-trains. If HiTec included a 2!QUOT!x2!QUOT! piece of paper with each servo explaining the intended purpose of the sevo and possible issues involving thread locker then I would have never crashed my plane, because I would have returned the servos and purchased a compatible set. Not seeing the HiTecs warning about plane size, I chose this servo because I figure two 171oz. of torque should be more than necessary to control a 30% plane in the roll direction, especially when the manufacturer recommends 130oz. Why doesn't HiTec include a warning with each servo? They include an application guide that says nothing about Karbonite servos to my knowledge. (I could be mistaken) I've read the sheet a few times and nowhere does it discuss Karbonite's aircraft size/application restrictions. What aggravates me is that I lost an model because HiTec's lack of motivation to inform its consumers of a problem that they addressed in 2003. Plane manufactures include amendments to their kits/instructions all the time. (i.e. unforeseen issues with balancing, misalignment of pre-drilled holes, etc...) Why hasn't HiTec forked over ~$.05 a servo to get the word out?

(in reply to mglavin)
       Post #: 8

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/4/2005 12:17:51 AM   
mglavin



Posts: 5200
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Elverta, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Reehnegie

I'm real sorry you lost your model and I understand your frustrated and at a loss for the time and money invested.

My comments on composites in quotes "Composites are forms or derivatives of plastic". says it all IMO... FWIW; so is nylon.

I suppose it would be possible for Hitec to provide additional info in regard to Karbonite servos do and don’ts, problem is most probably wouldn’t read the note. So were still facing a dilemma of sorts. I have suggested that Hitec consider providing this additional info in this regard.

Hitec’s website has the same information and more than listed at Servo City, additionally there are not any of the atypical mistakes often noted by others. Simply click on the MANUAL or SPECIFICATIONS button on each servo page depicted. Hitec suggests that modelers be aware of the model specific use and over all weight too.

Do other manufacturers include said notes about not using Loctiite ot thread-lockers on their nylon geared units? I suspect OEM's assume modelers no better or at the very least will read the data sheet provided with the thread locking products.

Hitec does not suggest on their info sheet to use any product to lock the screw in place. As the end user you made the decision to utilize a product that is not compatible with Hitec's and others composite/resin/nylon/Karrbonite gear-trains. Unfortunately it was a costly lesson.

_____________________________

Michael Glavin
RCU Community Moderator
Hitec * Multiplex Field Representative

(in reply to Reehnegie)
       Post #: 9

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/4/2005 12:58:06 AM   
lrb75


 

Posts: 421
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Alexandria, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Not to add fuel to the fire here, but I alway thought that the info about the screw length and loctite on karbonite gears would have been helpful to add as a sticky at the top of this forum. By the way I have been using several of the 5475 servos for about two years with no problems.

(in reply to MikeMayberry)
       Post #: 10

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/4/2005 2:47:29 AM   
mglavin



Posts: 5200
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Elverta, CA, USA
Status: offline 		lrb

This specific thread was originally at the top as a "sticky" and locked to not receive responses. Not sure what happened and it fell off, I realized this when the first inquiry or post came up yesterday but decided to allow it roll along for the time being. Later I'll place a new sticky or edit this thread and put it back at the top of the Forum.

_____________________________

Michael Glavin
RCU Community Moderator
Hitec * Multiplex Field Representative

(in reply to lrb75)
       Post #: 11

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/4/2005 3:33:09 AM   
nmking09



Posts: 375
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Champaign, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Bottom line, either the specific make up of Karbonite needs to be made public, or Hitec needs to place a disclaimer in the box.

Not only is the lock tite a problem but !QUOT!Karbonite is not good for high vibration applications, or applications for aircraft over 12lbs!QUOT!, hitec customer service.

If you can tell me when I would need a servo capable of producing 150 in-oz in a plane less than 12lbs, that is not a gasser ( high vibration ), please do.

There is no way that you can assume that composites are a form of plastic. Plastic is a petroleum derivative. Fiberglass and carbon are considered composites and are not comprised, and do not consist petroleum derivatives. So how can you tell me that something that sounds like it is made out of graphite is a plastic???

Like I said in the first line either make the composition of Karbonite known or add note stating not to use loc-tite.

To the Hitec people:
Dont you think that placing a slip of paper inside the box would be cheaper than repeatedly replacing servo gears. Not to mention the thousands of dollars that are lost due to only one club boycotting hitec servos. Admit that the customer is not as smart as you are and place a slip of paper in the stupid box.

As for this being a sticky, it seems a bit strange placing a sticky that asks for responses!

Nmking09,
hitec boycotter, until further notice

_____________________________

Don't fly what you can't afford to buy two of !!!

(in reply to mglavin)
       Post #: 12

RE: Karbonite and Loc-tite is a no no - 11/4/2005 5:27:13 AM   
carrellh

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