RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review  
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    • All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Giant Scale Aircraft - General >> RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review
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    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 2:14:48 PM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		One BIG issue I have with Flair Direct is that they are charging $709.00 US for the Stearman where as Radical RC just sold me the kit for $525.00 US. They could be charging a lot more because they are shipping one kit at a time to the U.S.A.

    This is what I can gather from the response you posted:

    Flair Products Ltd manufactures the kits and they are in voluntary receivership. Flair Direct Ltd is a separate sister company that sells the kits on the web in addition to many other products from other manufacturers such as 3W engines, Solartex covering and so on.

    If Flair Products Ltd is not making products Flair Direct Ltd will have nothing to sell ergo:
    quote:

    "There are some logistical problems at the moment which prevent us offering the first class service that we like to achieve so we cannot service some orders at the moment.

    It looks like Flair Direct has run out of Flair Products Ltd kits (no surprise) but they have plenty of other products to sell which is why they are still in business. I don't know the terms of "voluntary receivership” in England but it appears that this may get resolved. Flair Direct Ltd is willing to take your order for Flair kits hoping that they will be able to fill them down the road.
    quote:

    If you would like to place your order with Flair Direct we will deal with this as soon as we can.

    Voluntary Receivership is not a good thing. It could be mismanagement or it could be the affects of Chinese competition.

    For example, Dave Patrick sells that new 1/4th scale Super Cub for around $500.00 95% assembled. Do you think that it's made in the U.S.A.? A lot of people out there rather buy a fully assembled airplane for $500 than a kit that will take them months if not years to complete for the same price.

    I'm sure Flair doesn't survive because of Stearman and Tiger Moth sales. This is their high-end line. How many of these kits would you have to sell each year to keep a business going? How big is the total 1/4th scale kit market? I think that the Stearman and Tiger Moth kits exist because it gives a corporation a reputation for excellece. I would wager that the majority of their profits are coming from other product lines such as ARF sales and that's probably where their taking a beating. The Chinese can make a completey finished airplane cheaper than Flair Products Ltd can put parts in a box. It's that simple.





    < Message edited by Cybertom -- 4/24/2005 1:37:54 AM >

    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to chasrb)
           Post #: 176

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 3:21:28 PM   
    outacontrol41


     

    Posts: 1264
    Joined: 11/27/2004
    From: Girdletree, MD, USA
    Status: offline     		So, for about 200 or 300 more dollars than kit price, it's possible our beloved Flair Stearman kit will show up as an ARF?? Or are you talking about their own version (Chinese version) in ARF? If these kits disappear completely, it will be a sad day in the hobby world.

    (in reply to Cybertom)
           Post #: 177

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 3:49:25 PM   
    chasrb



    Posts: 953
    Joined: 1/12/2003
    From: Warrenton, VA, USA
    Status: offline     		Or these lits will be sold to one of the "laser" houses and be offered like Zirolli or others. That would not be a bad option as long as they remain true to the quality and light weight manner these Flair produsct are produced today.

    _____________________________

    Chasman

    (in reply to outacontrol41)
           Post #: 178

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 3:54:31 PM   
    chasrb



    Posts: 953
    Joined: 1/12/2003
    From: Warrenton, VA, USA
    Status: offline     		I have a question for you guys, do any of you have experience with the Laser engines? I really want to put a radial on the from of my Pt-17 but if I can not find a good fit (read cost effective) then I want to go with the next best thing. I had read on another site that one builder ended up putting the new Laser 360 twin on his PT-17. I looked but could not find out any detail on that engine. Weight, thrust dia...

    Any ideas?

    _____________________________

    Chasman

    (in reply to chasrb)
           Post #: 179

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 8:38:49 PM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		No,

    I'm simply saying that Flair Products Ltd is probably under significant financial stress because of unfair labor competition. How can you compete with a company who is paying their labor force 25-times less than yours? I don't know about you, but I would like to see kits coming from countries other than just China in the years to come. All we can hope for is that the Communist Government screws it all up!


    < Message edited by Cybertom -- 4/30/2005 6:30:22 AM >

    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to outacontrol41)
           Post #: 180

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/23/2005 8:41:29 PM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		Here is a link to Laser Engines:

    Laser Engines

    These engines are not cheap but they are of the highest quality. Laser doesn't publish figures on Horsepower which I am disappointed. They claim and rightly so that there is more to it than just HP. I don't think that they want to get into a pissing match with a competitor who has an inferior product but is claiming more power. If you look at the BIG TIME scale builders in Europe and look to see what engines they are running in competitions, you will see Laser over and over again.

    I'm buying a Laser 150 for my Tiger Moth project. About every Flair Tiger Moth I have seen or read about has a Laser 150 in it. It's the defacto World Wide standard for the Flair Tiger Moth.


    < Message edited by Cybertom -- 4/24/2005 1:58:12 AM >

    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to chasrb)
           Post #: 181

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 1:45:42 AM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		Future home of new Stearman motor mount picture (as soon as I'm finished):

    I have made some progress on the motor mount design but I'm not done yet! Total weight is 3/4th lb. It’s going to be made out of 6161 T6 Aluminum or another grade like 2011. I have calculated that 3 degrees of right and down thrust results in approximately 4.25 degrees of actual engine tilt along its centerline. This mount offsets the engine to keep the thrust line of the propeller on center while maintaining the thrust angles:

    Attachments
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    < Message edited by Cybertom -- 4/30/2005 5:56:41 AM >

    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to chasrb)
           Post #: 182

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 2:22:30 AM   
    outacontrol41


     

    Posts: 1264
    Joined: 11/27/2004
    From: Girdletree, MD, USA
    Status: offline     		Went to laserengines.com but didn't see a U.S. distributor, is there one? Sounds like this is Saito's level of quality and popularity...but popular only in Europe. I learned about the Laser engines by reading the Flair ads. I did a search and came up with nothing...until now. Thanks for the link. Now, who sells them here??

    Give me a Zenoah for gas, Saito for 4 stroke, and I'm set!

    (in reply to Cybertom)
           Post #: 183

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 2:34:07 AM   
    chasrb



    Posts: 953
    Joined: 1/12/2003
    From: Warrenton, VA, USA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    LASER-200v The most successful competition 4-stroke twin ever produced. Will fit easily into scale radial cowls and in Continental and Lycoming cowls. The engine gives best power between 8-9,000rpm.



    This is the Laser engine I have read installed on the PT-17 in most of the reviews from EU. The report says it is
    quote:

    LASER Vee Twins. The Vee twins are exceptionally smooth running very powerful and reliable. The Vee layout gives perfect primary balance and the offbeat firing gives the engine a distinctive and realistic sound. The smooth power of the Vee twin puts less vibration and stress into your model and radio gear resulting in longer life and lighter airframe structures.


    An offbeat firing is the same method in which Harley Davidson set it's engines...Hmmm a connection maybe. I may end up with the laser 200 instead of a Radial only because I can buy a nice trailer (which I need to haul my planes in) for the cost of a Radial engine...but, I may just do both.


    _____________________________

    Chasman

    (in reply to Cybertom)
           Post #: 184

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 4:08:41 AM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		Proctor Enterprises sells Laser Engines here in the US. They also sell some cool museum scale kits.

    Here's the link:
    Proctor Enterprises



    Attachments
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    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to outacontrol41)
           Post #: 185

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 1:34:57 PM   
    chasrb



    Posts: 953
    Joined: 1/12/2003
    From: Warrenton, VA, USA
    Status: offline     		Thanks for the link. I'll have to go back thru some of the websites I have seen with Flair pt-17's featured and look at the engine/dummy radial setup vs the real thing to see if I caould live with anything other than a radial engine.

    _____________________________

    Chasman

    (in reply to Cybertom)
           Post #: 186

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 4:21:17 PM   
    Cybertom



    Posts: 545
    Joined: 12/2/2002
    From: Streetsboro, OH, USA
    Status: online     		Look back on JB's post number 138 page 6. He did an outstanding job making the dummy radial look very real. He posted some really nice photos showing the detail. I really like your idea of having V-Twin sound with a good looking radial up front.

    I don't know how much you are willing to spend but there was a Seidel 7-Cylinder Radial Engine on ebay not to long ago that went for $2,557.00. That's about half what my Robart cost me and double what a Saito or OS will cost. It's about the perfect size for the Flair PT-17 Stearman. It puts out about 4HP. They show up on ebay every few months. I'm seriously considering purchasing one. I have heard really good things about Seidel from Sputz. Unfortunatly it seems that Mr. Seidel only builds engines when he feels like it.

    Attachments
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    < Message edited by Cybertom -- 4/24/2005 4:39:53 PM >

    _____________________________

    Real airplanes have 2-wings and round engines!

    (in reply to chasrb)
           Post #: 187

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/24/2005 9:00:37 PM   
    chasrb



    Posts: 953
    Joined: 1/12/2003
    From: Warrenton, VA, USA
    Status: offline     		Cybertom thanks for the info!. I would pick us a Seidel in a sec if I could find one. On a "aeroplane" such as the Stearman I would easily spend teh money to get the Seidel. The Technopower 9C is arond 3k and is a 4.0 ci and weighs in a 73 oz but it is a 1/5 scale and is 9' across. Plus did any Stearmans have 9 cyl?

    Thanks

    _____________________________

    Chasman

    (in reply to Cybertom)
           Post #: 188

    RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT-17 Stearman Review - 4/25/2005 12:38:48 AM   
    P-51B



    Posts: 6173
    Joined: 10/11/2002
    From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: chasrb

    Thanks for the link. I'll have to go back thru some of the websites I have seen with Flair pt-17's featured and look at the engine/dummy radial setup vs the real thing to see if I caould live with anything other than a radial engine.