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Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 5/18/2002 7:17 AM   
Brian Smith


 

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Status: offline 		I'm scratch building a 1/4 scale WW1 Eindecker and have to bend a number of wire parts..I need a site or info on welding/ soldering/ brazing 1/4 inch piano wire?? Thanks..Brian

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No site but.... - 5/18/2002 10:44 AM   
CoosBayLumber


 

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Status: offline 		I would initially only consider soldering the wire together. Welding or brazing asks for a lot of heat, like with Oxy/acetylene, and that introduces warping.

There are steels which will not accept solder, but many of the mild steels will. I would first try cleaning up the surfaces, and then sandpapering them a bit rough. Then neatly bind the join area with bare copper wire. Heat with a common propane torch a bit then apply a few drops of Shiney-Bright soldering flux. Heat more, then hit the area with a few strands of their high tensile solder, or a silver based low heat solder. You can obtain this from a welding supply or a heating/air conditioning supply house.

The other situation may be to try Phos-bronze or silver solder, but this again takes a lot of heat. Not so much that it will warp though.


Wm.

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Mig Weld - 5/30/2002 11:57 PM   
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Status: offline 		I just did this for a guy and I used my mig welder...
It was no problem... Low heat, small wire... done (forever) and you can clean up the weld to look nice...
You need to use a Mig with gas, none of that flux core stuff if you can avoid it... Never had good luck with that & small items...
That wrap & solder deal always seems to crack after a while...

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Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 6/3/2002 6:42 AM   
RGM



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Status: offline 		Brian-
Check out [url]www.sailplanes.com/musicwire.htm[/url]
A very informative article on wire bending written by Roy Vaillancourt

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/16/2013 8:22 PM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		I just TIG welded the landing gear for my Elder 40.  Went to tweek the wire just a bit and it snapped off.  Anyone know if heat will cause the wire to become brittle?

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/16/2013 9:25 PM   
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Status: offline 		Music wire is a high carbon steel which is sensitive to being heated above the usual tempering colours. So welding or brazing it where you run any part of it up to incandescent or higher heat is going to ruin the wire in at least some way.

33Willys, in your case I suspect that the wire cooled fast enough from being heated to the melting point in the zone in and around the weld that it became fully hardened and simply snapped in the same way that a fully hard metal file will snap because it hasn't been tempered back to a springly temper.

If you want to try welding again I'd suggest that after it cools that you wire brush it back to a shiney silver bare metal finish and then gently wave a propane torch over the area until it passes through light to dark straw colour and on up just into the blue colour. Once it's at the blue state dump it with water to halt it from going softer.

Now this may leave some areas around the joint which are annealed. But that will be due to the original welding.

To avoid all this and keep the music wire in the original spring steel state welding or high heat brazing should be avoided. Wrapping and soldering is the only way to join the metal which will avoid this spot annealing and spot hardening problem.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/16/2013 10:43 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Silver solder or better silver braze is the way to go. Braze is what the old silver solder is called now;; it has gotten expensive and needs a torch. Staybright from Tower works pretty good un less it needs to be super strong thin the other is ok
Also be careful and not get plumber "silver solder" which is lead free for drinking water.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/17/2013 3:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		"Silver solder or better silver braze is the way to go"

I would argue that. Temperature for brazing is way too high. You will create a zone between the high temp braze and the lower temp that is brittle and it will snap under stress.

Standard radio 60/40 solder is all I have ever used (since the mid '50s) and I have never had a problem, except when I messed up.

Les

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/17/2013 9:40 PM   
aspeed


 

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 I often wondered about MIG welding landing gear.  If is cooled slowly it shouldn't get brittle.  The snapped example sounds like it may have been quenched to cool.  I thought it would go soft, if anything, from annealing.  The one poster seemed to have good luck.  Probably won't be answering here, that was 10 years ago.



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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/17/2013 11:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		And that's the problem with silver soldering or welding. Out at some distance the metal is hot enough to become annealed but cooler than the critical temperature for hardening. On the other side of that line where the steel is over the critical temperature clearly smaller sizes cool quickly enough to become hardened and brittle.

Now one can then temper the hardened areas to remove the brittleness. But nothing can be done about the annealed zones just outside of those areas. They are going to remain soft regardless.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/18/2013 3:13 AM   
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Status: offline 		I have brazed my gear and numerous other pianno wire projects for years without one incedent. I use 55% silver brazing wire, everything is bent into shape and wrapped with brass wire at the joint after applying the proper flux, then I wrap the siver wire around the area I want connected, then useing a Bernzomatic Mapp gas torch with a 1/4" head I heat it until the silver flows in.


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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/18/2013 3:41 PM   
LesUyeda



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Status: offline 		" If is cooled slowly it shouldn't get brittle. "

In the old days. These days, the quality of the rod we get is so bad, that it does not conform to ANY thing that we used to be able to do.

Les

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/18/2013 10:30 PM   
aspeed


 

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Status: offline 		I have got some piano wire that is so brittle that you couldn't even bend it without breaking it and jabbing yourself of course. I suppose a welded joint could be brought up to red hot, quenched in oil, polished, and then heated evenly to a straw colour.  Brazed joints would melt doing this.  I have heated the ends of landing gear so it is possible to thread it with a die to hold on the wheels.  Otherwise, the die chips.  You only do the tip so the bend is still tough and hard like it presumeably should be.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/19/2013 2:42 AM   
Propworn


 

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Status: offline 		Forget the soldering guns and the micro torches you need a soldering iron with a large heat sink so that your work does not suck all the heat out of the iron when you use it. This is probably the best one out there of all of them. http://www.packetradio.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2192

Also forget the copper wire instead pick up some mechanics wire (soft iron) and sand the mechanics wire bright and the piano wires bright then wrap the whole joint with tight coils. You will find everything is held in place with just the wire so you can install and position everything correctly. Now a few drops of the flux and apply the iron to the joint and wait a bit until the flux boils off. Keep the iron in contact and apply the solder until the joint is fully soldered. There is enough heat in this iron the solder will flow through the whole joint leaving it nice and shiny. After all soldering is done you should scrub the acid flux off the joints and surrounding areas. This iron easily handles 1/4 piano wire.

For some pictures refer to posts by propworn including links to tools a such for bending wire http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11035484/anchors_11038324/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#11038324

Dennis

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/19/2013 3:47 PM   
LesUyeda



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Status: offline 		80 Watts for 1/4" wire landing gear????? I don't think so.

Les

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/19/2013 4:48 PM   
33willys


 

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Status: offline 		I think that should read 1/8" wire.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/19/2013 5:25 PM   
Propworn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LesUyeda

80 Watts for 1/4'' wire landing gear????? I don't think so.

Les


80 watt is correct it’s the mass of the tip and size of the heater element that gives it the continuous heat to do the job. Unlike soldering guns that have almost no material to hold the heat and cool almost as soon as you touch something of any size. If you look at the third photo there is two 1/8 wires bound to a 3/16 wire and the whole joint was soldered easily with the low temp silver solder and the 80 watt iron. This is a mechanical solder joint, so unlike electrical you use acid flux and melt the solder into the joint holding the iron in place as the solder itself helps to wick the heat through the whole joint. When you see the solder beginning to tin the wire beyond the joint and the whole joint is shinny as any solder joint should be then remove the iron and let cool naturally. Resist forcing the cooling as this makes the joint brittle. We used to use nothing but shaped copper ends heated with a propane torch and solder sheet metal together no wattage at all. The capacity of your iron is its ability to hold and transfer the required heat to the joint being soldered. Guns and small irons are meant for lighter wiring and electronics. If you want to do mechanical soldering or large wire you need to get the right iron with a heavy duty end on it. This 80 watt iron is commonly used to melt and join the lead tracks in stained glass work so it definitely has the capacity needed for 1/4 landing gear.

Dennis


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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/20/2013 7:28 AM   
BMatthews



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Status: offline 		Propworn makes a valid point about the thermal mass of a large and heavy tip. Such tips are simply not found on irons intended for electrical or small parts work. But irons intended for serious mechanical soldering come with big heavy tips. Mind you USUALLY they are also stuck onto heaters of up around 200 watts as well. But I'm sure that a big heavy tip on an 80 watt iron would do the job on a typical landing gear joint even if the wire was 1/4 inch. It would simply take longer for element to replace the heat that was transferred from the tip to the joint.

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RE: Brazing/soldering 1/4 in LG wire?? - 1/20/2013 11:30 AM   
Propworn


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BMatthews

Propworn makes a valid point about the thermal mass of a large and heavy tip. Such tips are simply not found on irons intended for electrical or small parts work. But irons intended for serious mechanical soldering come with big heavy tips. Mind you USUALLY they are also stuck onto heaters of up around 200 watts as well. But I'm sure that a big heavy tip on an 80 watt iron would do the job on a typical landing gear joint even if the wire was 1/4 inch. It would simply take longer for element to replace the heat that was transferred from the tip to the joint.


Exactly, thank you, there are even bigger irons out there with 200 watts and even more but the cost becomes prohibitive for the amount of times we use it so the 80 watt iron is a nicely priced compromise that 99% of the modellers would find usable. For even bigger jobs I have made a copper adapter tip that fits on the end of a small propane torch. This one you have to be careful with as it gets hot enough to burn the flux and contaminate the joint. Using an open flame on low temp silver solder has the same problems in that care must be exercised as not to burn the flux and contaminate the joint. Solder joints done this way have supported over 40 lb aircraft during not so gentle landings during the SAE Aerodesign competition where the objective is to lift as much weight as possible. Wire landing gear is used to reduce the weight of the aircraft and hopefully increase payload capacity. I have seen where the landing gear gets mangled pretty good and force straightened in a hurry for the next round yet the solder joint holds fast. The secret is to take your time and let the solder tin the whole joint as well as fill the gaps.

Dennis


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