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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 8:13 PM   
rhklenke



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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcronkhite

[snip]
My comments were simply that you're calling something IMAC that is not IMAC, and as Matt Carroll stated in one of these posts.. pointing fingers at another group saying "Why not them?" is NOT the way to handle this. We need to show what WE are doing to promote safety, what WE are doing to prevent mishaps and how WE are NOT a problem for the AMA rather than try and use the 'You're picking on me' attitude.

I think the best idea so far is to get your district VP involved in the waiver process and show him just how much work we go through to get that little piece of paper every year.


Just to clarify, my original reply was in responce to the idea of talking with the other groups about helping us, and I think its a good idea. Neither I nor the original poster were pointing to the other groups in a "why us and not them" approach. I too belong to more than just the jet group and I think this method of operation needs to be quashed not only because its wrong, but also because they, or any other modeling activity (helicopters?!?! I do those too), could be next if we're going to act on the incorrect opinion of only one person, regardless of who they are...

Bob

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 9:05 PM   
Ben Diss


 

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Status: offline 		G-man-RCU- Slow down. I'm on your side. Take a deep breath and relax.

Bob- Thanks. I got it now.

Doug- IMAC is strongly influenced by AMA. Sound regulations and the zoneless box come to mind.

All- This thread now has over 1,100 hits. How many of those came from the 98%ers? Many AMA members are forming opinions now and many of these may have influence on their district VPs.

Some have stated that jets are safer than .40 glow planes. I assume that this is due to waiver requirments. Is that right? Why are jets safer?

-Ben

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 9:14 PM   
LancelowDowell


 

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Status: offline 		I cannot agree more with Doug on this... attacking each other is not what we need to be doing.

International 3D will be holding elections starting in January. We just put up our sign up list less then a month ago, and we're already 120 members strong and growing every day. As soon as we have officers, I'm sure we will be more then happy to work with JPO or any other organization.

If you have not heard of I3D yet, we're a SIG for the 3D pilots. You can check us out at http://www.international3d.org.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 10:10 PM   
Aero65



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You know we are all R/C ers we need to work together with all R/C ers on this. If we try and separate ourselves from the rest of the RC world by pointing fingers that we are safer than that group that will only work against us in the big picture, as we all fly aircraft of one sort or another.

Others have said it we are the 2%, I disagree we are 100% R/C ers why is Dave Brown trying to turn the rest of the AMA against us? Divide and concur is his plan; and if he can provide fear and prejudice so the rest of the AMA members will see us a threat to their flying then we have lost.

I have the utmost respect for my brothers, and sisters in the AMA who fly others types of airplanes, I was once a beginer, sport flyer, pattern person. Now I'm a Jet Guy, so what, I still love the whole hobby and all phases of it I also enjoy the company of all my R/C buddies who do not fly jets. We as a group need to realize it is not the 2% against the 98% we are all in it together, we are all R/C flyer's that need to work together to keep our flying privilege.

When our Leader choose to not follow the AMA constitution and Bylaws, we are all in trouble. Dave was bound to support the decision of the EC, he overrode their decision and called an emergency meeting to put a stop to the new rules. He is now trying to rally the AMA membership through and editorial that states no facts, and uses the implied threat that the turbine flyer's will cause the extinction of flying as we know it. All AMA members should fear this kind of decision making, if it continues what will come next.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 10:34 PM   
Aero65



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ben Diss

Some have stated that jets are safer than .40 glow planes. I assume that this is due to waiver requirments. Is that right? Why are jets safer?

-Ben



Ill only try to answer the .40 glow plane thing. I'm sorry if some comments are plainly obvious.

I believe that some one said the AMA determined the threshold of lethality was a 6 lb airplane at 60 mph. So in my opinion it would seem to play out that any plane above this threshold is equal dangerous as the ultimate result would be horrific. I do not think that jets are inherently safer than any other airplanes above 6 lbs.

From and engineering standpoint, because of their Kinetic energy is higher due to weight and speed jets do have to potential to cause more property damage, than a .40 sized trainer. But as far as personal injury Dead is Dead.

In general people to buy and fly jets have to attain a higher degree of skill and experience before flying jets. Again there are very experienced sport flyer's that are equal or better than some of the jet pilots out there, but as a general rule the pilot flying jets have at least had to pass a flying test in front of a Turbine CD, and be signed off by another, the most a sport flyer's has to do is to pass his, or her club's flight test.

I also know this is the real world and there can be exceptions. I think it is like any other airplane in the end, it depends on who is flying it not the airplane it's self

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 10:42 PM   
cnbhome


 

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Status: offline 		Guys.... I just got a response from Dave Brown to my Email I sent this morning (see above). The reality is there is a very big concern about the insurance issue and potential govenment involvement that we are not addressing and unless we do, this issue will not go away. It revolves around the potential and I mean potential of a high visability accident involving a jet and or big model plane. It does not matter what happens, only that something did and the media takes it and runs who knows where.

Look at it this way. If a .40 causes a death or fire it will be reported simply as an RC Plane causes an accident. Remember the Arizona loss this summer. If a Jet causes the same thing there is a whole new twist to the story, most people do not even know there is such a thing as a real RC jet, so that in of itself is a story.

The 2% of us have to get the involvement of the 98% or we will loose, that is how it will be. Educate your VP get them to the field and demonstrate the process and talk about the degree of experience you have and what is needed to get a Waver. Hopefully, during the process, they will have to duck or move out of the way of, an out of control, .40 Ugly Stick. Step up and volunteer to train a VP now.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 10:56 PM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		what was the Arizona loss you are referring to? I am glad we have some of the 98% coming over and giving us their input. The more the word gets out, the better we all are. This is our opportunity to educate and come together as a solid group of people who still see this as a hobby and want to keep it that way. Remember the AMA is here to support our hobby and our hobby is about flying. I dont think anywhere in there it specifies what kind of flying or what your flying. I believe the insurance issue is a smoke screen and something that is easy to hide behind or else the Jet guys wouldn't be the only being aggressively attacked here.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 10:59 PM   
Gary Jefferson


 

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Status: offline 		How long do you guys think that it has been since Dave Brown has even flown a model airplane? And, I don't mean one flight in the last 10 years over the Atlantic Ocean or whatever it was. I live in the same city he does and I can tell you that I have never seen him at any of the local flying fields around here and I have been to most.

The whole situation reminds me of some of the local flying clubs whose officers consist mostly of people who never fly and yet feel that they have some sort of inhereted right to complain about anything and everything that goes on at the flying field just because they are an officer. They simply like the POWER!!

When was the last time Dave Brown was in touch with people that actually fly and actively participate in the hobby on a day to day basis to know what it is that the members want from the AMA? If I remember correctly, I think he flew his Pitts to Superman and stayed 10 minutes last year, wow!!

The reality is that the AMA is being run by someone who is a business man and not an RC pilot like the rest of us. In my opinion, this in no way represents you and me or what is best for the advancement of our sector of the hobby. Flying pattern planes in the 1970's in no way qualifies Dave Brown to run the AMA today.

I have never voted in the annual elections but next time I will!! Gary

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 11:14 PM   
Gordito Volador



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Status: offline 		This is all about current DB/AMA politics. Just look at what DB has said and written in the past and just now. " The Line In The Sand" has been drawn by DB himself because he got some opposition to what he personally wanted. This fellow is an accomplished politician, make no doubt about it. He has the AMA Magazine in his hands to throw the first punch this time and every time. He has already created a situation of "Us and Them" by his 2% -vs- 98% comments. Don't think so? Just wait a month for the knee jerk reaction of the local clubs to this article (half truths and all). As long as DB is in power he will get his way, fact of life. Risk Management is a great pair of buzzwords to get the masses in line, this has been happening in many areas of business for years. It is time guys to quit the bickering, turn down the testosterone levels, and get the wagons circled. We need to communicate with the JPO leadership and get an organized and creative effort going. We are a more endangered species than most want to realize or admit. Oh, BTW the February vote by the EC to pass the proposed turbine regs? Don't think that we will ever see that happen to the current version, DB will get what he wants on that as well.

Bill Adkins
AMA 6243
JPO 1788

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 11:21 PM   
jonkoppisch



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Status: offline 		I think you're on the right track with this:


quote:


3) Determine how to publish a rebuttal in the AMA magazine and website posting.


quote:

origonal: Dave Brown I ask you, where should that "line in the sand"
be drawn?

The EC needs to make its decisions based upon the whole picture and not just the inputs of any SIG. They are the "experts" in each of their disciplines, but in their enthusiastic representation of those special interests, SIGs cannot be counted on to be "objective" in terms of what is reasonable for the membership as a whole to accept as a risk in which it shares equally.


Wow!!!!! Sig's can't "counted on" to be objective in making good choices. Wow!!!!!

quote:

origonal: Dave Brown I ask you, where should that "line in the sand"
be drawn?

By definition, a SIG is a group dedicated to a small constituency and is expected to fight for the desires of that small group and not excessively worry about the effect on the rest of the AMA membership


Man have you guys been going at it wrong this whole time!!
quote:

origonal: Dave Brown I ask you, where should that "line in the sand"
be drawn?

They are the "experts" in each of their disciplines


Seems like if they are "experts" they should know about all aspects including what is and isn't safe...

What a Mess!!!! Good luck guys!!!


Jon

edited:

Also, I don't feel that we need to be adding additional rules to go by. It's been established over and over that with the current waiver qualifications we have are by far the safest group in the rc community!!!

< Message edited by jonkoppisch -- 12/23/2003 6:26:33 PM >

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 11:43 PM   
cnbhome


 

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Status: offline 		Dave Browns politics aside, there is a real issue here around the insurance, if not Dave it will be somebody else that sees the reality of what is happening in this country. The 2% have to get the 98% to see it is just not the Jet group at danger here. Work toward that issue not the personality of one individual, a big portion of what he is afraid of is real for all of us.

The Arizona loss was the accident that happened when somebody hit himself with a small plane and died. It might not have been in Arizona since you don't remember it, I just remember it in the South West.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/23/2003 11:54 PM   
unknown



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Status: offline 		Just look at our ama magazine pictures thats the 98% the ama cares for. Its time for the 2% so to speak to start voting the next time around.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 12:21 AM   
Ron Stahl


 

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Status: offline 		Since Dave has drawn a line in the sand I say we the Jet modelers/ JPO step up to it and take out a full page ad in the AMA magazine informing the membership of what really transpired this past fall and let them know that they are probably next.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 12:33 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		I like the idea of the jpo buying a full page add to both speak to what DB said and what he did and then point out the facts. Maybe we should call him Dave"slick willie" Brown. my 2% worth

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 12:42 AM   
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Status: offline 		I think that what Todd wrote covers it all in a nutshell and should be published somewhere and soon. Do you actually think that even if were offering to pay , the AMA would accept it and publish it?

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 12:44 AM   
JetJocky



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Status: offline 		I have read the entire post and think that everyone adding to this post may be missing the most important point of where to start, your own club! How many of you waiver holders are involved with your own club? Do you hold an office? What do you do for your club?

It is easy for us to all complain and gripe about what is being done, it is harder to make change. I am a new waiver holder and a new jet guy. I am not however new to the hobby. My fleet consists of 40% 3D planes, 2 jets, fun fly planes, float planes, gliders , etc. If it flies then it is fun.

I know you have a greater voice if you have the support of your own clubmembers! I'm the President for our local club, my wife and I run the snack shack at our large events, and I am involved with running the majority of our events including a large jet event. Interesting enough, our members all like the jets and are not scared or intimidated by them. We have had turbines brought in for show and tell at our club meetings and also discussed safety of a jet. If we want to make an impact we need to be involved in our own community! If our members are behind us then we can make more of an impact.

I plan to bring this issue up at our next meeting and see how many members are willing to make a stand. I would highly encourage you to do the same. If you do not hold an office currently, perhaps you might consider it. We need to work smart, not hard.

Just my 2 cents,

Glenn Hoffman
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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 1:27 AM   
Gordon Mc



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extra Nut

I have read the entire post and think that everyone adding to this post may be missing the most important point of where to start, your own club! How many of you waiver holders are involved with your own club? Do you hold an office? What do you do for your club?

<snip>

I know you have a greater voice if you have the support of your own clubmembers!


Amen.

How many of the jet guys are or have been officers of their clubs ? How many of them are out there on the buddy-box helping the newbies master that crosswind landing on their LT40 ? How many of them man the BBQ at the club's non-jet events ? How many have written an article for their club newsletter, explaining turbine safety procedures and asking others to feel free to come over & ask questions ? How many of you who have waved a newcomer out of the "unsafe zone" during a turbine start have taken the time afterwards to go find the guy you shoo'd away, and explained to him that the AMA wants him kept clear during start-up, but that he's now more than welcome to come over & check your toys out and ask any questions he wants ? How many of you have made an effort to go o fly your jets at clubs that don't have any active jet members, to expose them to the experience and provoke their interest ? etc., etc.

The more you involve yourself in the activities that the 98% share in, the more common ground the jet guys and the non-jet guys have, and the more knowledgeable the 98% becomes about our segment of the hobby. That common ground makes you allies in the fight against those who attempt to manipulate ignorance & fear against us.

The next time you are at the field, make sure you spend time with the other 98%.

Gordon

< Message edited by Gordon Mc -- 12/23/2003 8:28:08 PM >

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 1:41 AM   
J_R


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KevinBarr

For what it's worth, here is a EXACT copy of an email I sent to my District VP:



Mr. Oberdieck,

Greetings!! My name is Kevin Barr (AMA 110941), I am contacting you
regarding a very disturbing article I read in Dave Brown's president's
column in the February 2004 issue. In it, he is asking the Model Aviation
public "where to draw the Line in the sand" in regards to safety and the
type of models that should be flown. In his article he eludes to an
inherent "safety Problem" with the speed and fuel carried by model jets.

This disturbs me, as a current Turbine Waiver holder and AMA member of over
20 years ( the last 10 flying jet aircraft) I am appalled at a president
using such a one-way forum to view his personal views without ANY shred of
fact to back it up. Where are the insurance claims, the accident reports
and such to back his claim, these should have been placed in his article,
rather he is using fear an ignorance to stir the hobby community?

There is NO other group in AMA that is so closely regulated, yet we have the
best safety record ( as per personal conversation with Dave Brown himself).
I flew all summer at my field, here in Minnesota, and personally witnessed 7
very serious accidents involving prop driven airplanes, 2 resulting nearly
in deaths. How is a giant scale airplane hovering 5 feet in front of the
pilot and him grabbing the tail of that airplane, considered safe? Yet there
are 5 turbine pilots who routinely fly upwards of 10 flights EACH a day,
all summer, without incident. Where is the increased risk? I see far too
many regular "Joe" pilots that SHOULD NOT be flying model aircraft. They
present the biggest risk in my opinion.

I am very disappointed in Dave Brown, using such a privileged position to
voice an OPINION, with no fact in his article to support it.

I would ask, do you support Dave brown's comments? I would like to know
your feelings on the subject. I would also personally extend an invitation
to come to our field and witness us fly in person, to see that Jet Pilots
are VERY serious about safety and do our utmost to insure the safety of
others. Has Dave Brown ever visited a Jet Rally, to see how it is run and
the caliber of pilots who attend?

Thank you for your time!!

Best Regards,

Kevin Barr


AND HERE IS AN EXACT COPY OF HIS RESPONSE:

Thank you for your opinion. It will be placed on file for future discussion.


Nothing more.. How's that for representaion????

Kevin Barr



What, exactly were you expecting? First you tell him how unsafe your field is, then you tell him you and your club stood there and watched a specific act that breaks existing rules, then you ask how it is considered safe, then you invite him to your field. The best thing that he can do for you is to permanently place your e-mail on ignore and hope he does not remember who you are or where you fly.

JR

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 3:15 AM   
Ben Diss


 

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Status: offline 		To restate some of the other comments that I think make sense, you guys (the 2%ers) need to:

1. Lobby the other 98% and get THEM to voice an opinion with their District VP.

2. Organize. Establish a leadership that can represent your group. Get that person to Muncie to talk to Dave Brown. Open a dialog and find a middle ground. Find out what he's after. Be willing to compromise.

Your struggle should be felt by all modelers. If AMA can shutdown jets, what's next? How about Pylon? What about pattern and IMAC? Is IMAA going to get shut down because of the size and weight? What's next. I hope I can still fly my Gentle Lady of a histart when this whole thing is done. Get it?

-Ben

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 3:24 AM   
J_R


 

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Status: offline 		You guys still don’t get it.

Dave Brown’s column was designed to get your attention. It appears that he did that. It is also aimed directly at the EC. He has their attention. Beyond that, don’t you wonder why he used 2% rather than the .4% that Turbine Waiver holders actually represent? The column is also aimed at autonomous flight and the guys that want to touch the tails of their planes on the ground while doing 3D (thrust to weight, also) as well as turbines. The column was on risk management in general, in spite of what you may have read into it.

How many of you ever took the time to actually call Dave Brown and talk to him? I did. He never, at any point, expressed any intention of banning turbines. This is about speed limits and how to make sure that planes stay in approximately the 200 mph range. The reason to keep them in the 200 mph range is to reduce the potential for fire caused by out of sight, out of control aircraft. After looking at all the arguments on the speed limiter issue, at the moment, it is pretty much of a non-issue, IMHO. The key is “at the moment”. What is the theoretical speed limit that a jet can achieve given the thrust that is allowed under the new rules? What will next year, or the year after, bring?

Why the 200 mph range? When I previously said Dave Brown stated that about 30% of all jet crashes result in fires, not one of you repudiated that. That is the entire concern that Dave Brown has. The speed limit is aimed at the lower end of the pilot ability range. That is the way rules work. The speed limit has been endorsed by the JPO, TRC, and SC. There are a few of you that feel that this deprives you of some inherent right to do as you please. Most of you seem to be fine with the limit. Many of you point out the potential of fires with other planes. Ask yourself, honestly, when was the last time you saw a giant scale plane, or for that matter any gas or glow powered plane crash and result in a fire? At the same time, I don’t think that any segment of the hobby works any harder to operate in a safe manner than waiver holders.

There are some members on the EC that felt, after the conference call, that the lack of working speed limiters was oversold during the presentation of the new rules. That is the reason that the EC voted to put the new rules into abeyance when new information came to light about speed limiters. Can after market speed limiters work in a safe and effective way? Forget the cost, forget whether you want to put one on or not, IF they can work effectively on planes that are capable of exceeding 200 mph, they are probably in your future. Nobody that I am aware of wants to require them on planes that are not capable of 200.

Some of you have asked why you? Why not a certification program for newbies, or giant scale? The answer is simple. You are doing something that the AMA prohibits. The AMA waives the right to stop you from doing it. As part of the waiver process, you must be certified. So, why no other certifications? Liability. Who, among you, or anyone you know, wants to assume the liability of signing a certification for a newbie? From the posts in this forum, there are those that find it difficult to locate someone willing to accept the liability for signing off on a waiver because of the liability of doing so.

THE issue is speed limiters and their ability to reduce crashes and thus reduce fires.

Did ANYONE bother to call Dave Brown and talk to him? I know Bob Violet talked to him for several hours after the EC meeting. It seems that some understanding of the issues might well be in order before writing letters or posting bashes that make no sense. I am an outsider, so most of you discount what I post. DB does not bite, call him or talk to him.. or your VP.

JR

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 4:38 AM   
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Status: offline 		I talked to him for over an hour today.....JR is right.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 5:26 AM   
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From: Oxford, MS, USA
Status: online 		I called and talked to my VP after the last go around. I left that 30 minute conversation feeling like I had talked to an out of touch brick wall. He could not give me any kind of justification for ANY of his "opinions". The insurance issue is a real concern, and it should be a concern for ALL of us not just the "2%". I have been active in my club, and also go to a lot of local flyins to promote jet modelling. Every where I have been to fly with my jets we have been well recieved. The local level is the place to start.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 5:41 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Score: 102
Joined: 1/4/2002
Last Login: 3/15/2006
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		David

Try calling DB. Talking to McNeill is like talking to a wall. Usually, when I say "call your VP" I follow it with "save one" and you have found the one. He voted against the turbine rules because he was told to by DB. He put the increased fuel limit proposal for turbines on the agenda for that EC meeting, then withdrew it, before consideration. Heck, I know more about turbines than JM is ever gonna know. If you know Frank Tiano, ask him about JM. If you know Bob Saddler (Noll Co-CD), talk to him about JM. If you want a real treat, call Tony Stillman at Radio South and ask him about JM. On the other hand, calling DB is worth the money. Sorry you wasted the call.

JR

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 5:50 AM   
DavidR



Posts: 2737
Score: 100
Joined: 12/8/2001
Last Login: 11/7/2009
From: Oxford, MS, USA
Status: online 		JR,

I will do that if they are there Friday.

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RE: Dave Brown Speaks - 12/24/2003 6:52 AM   
aparchment



Posts: 806
Score: 100
Joined: 12/8/2001
Last Login: 11/6/2009
From: Beautiful Coastal Scarborough, ME, USA
Status: offline 		I believe that PART of the answer as stated above is to educate your local guys. This has to be done respectfully so that they don't feel as if you are ramming your opinion down their throats or flaunting your fortunate position. We don't want to contribute to the "elitist" stereotype. It can be very difficult for the average modeler to understand why we would spend so much on these planes. I am always surprised at how intimidating the financial aspect of jets can be. If we come across as down to earth, friendly, willing to help people, we will win "hearts and minds." If we strut up and down flight lines ignoring those around us or demanding special treatment or basically acting like primadonnas we are hurting our cause.

If we get the grass roots guys to see us as an asset to the hobby, then it will be difficult for AMA leadership to convince them otherwise. Needless to say it will be difficult to reach enough people to gain a majority in AMA voting. Perhaps we could establish some sort of "ambassador" program where the ambassadors contact local clubs and offer to drop by and fly with/talk to the members about the fun and excitement of turbine jet modeling. These ambassadors would have to be ace pilots and have great people skills. We could advertise in the AMA mag for clubs that are interested to contact the ambassador program to arrange a visit. For my part I always try to get non jetsters to see beyond the intimidating aspects of jet modeling (cost, supposed danger, difficult to do) and see this aspect of the hobby for what I think it is (exciting, fun, great comraderie, cool technology). When club members or non modelers come to the Maine Jet Rally that Ray and I host, I know that there are certain people who are going to do a great job of representing the jet modeling community, and I steer my guests to them and away from any pilots with less than endearing personalities.

Part of the struggle to safeguard our aspect of the hobby is a PR war. It needs to be waged in an organized fashion with defined objectives if we are going to win. Sniping may be satisfying for the moment, but it accomplishes little if anything in the long run. So how about it guys -- which of you jetsters are marketing aces who could help develop a campaign to safeguard jet modeling?

Antony

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       Post #: 75

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