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Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/25/2003 4:22:28 PM   
niche



Posts: 113
Joined: 3/27/2002
From: Bogota, COLOMBIA
Status: offline 		Hello
I am not a big fan of nitro methane, thanks mainly to its huge price.

I am aware of its benefits but a friend of mine told me some people around here started using Nitro benzene instead of Nitro methane as it's far cheaper.

Has anyone had any experience using nitro benzene?, Does any one know anything about Nitro benzene as and additive on glow fuel (same purpose of Nitro methane).

Thanks in advance, have a nice one
Omar
       Post #: 1

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/25/2003 4:52:51 PM   
Jim Thomerson



Posts: 2792
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: online 		I understand nitrobenzene is a carcinogen. Also understand that it is not as effective as nitromethane.

Jim

(in reply to niche)
       Post #: 2

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/25/2003 10:48:00 PM   
downunder



Posts: 3168
Joined: 10/10/2002
From: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Before you consider using it I'd suggest having a look at this MSDS.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/n4530.htm

IMO nitro is an over-hyped additive mainly because it's so cheap in America. I've never found a need for it in any engine....ever. If you want the comparatively small extra power it can give then it's cheaper in the long run to just get a slightly larger engine.

(in reply to Jim Thomerson)
       Post #: 3

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/30/2003 2:34:45 AM   
3d-aholic



Posts: 1992
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Hard to believe that of the Nitro Parafins....Nitro Benzene would be comparable to Nitro Methane. The Benzene group changes the organic nature of the compound dramatically. Also not sure why Nitro Benzene would be cheaper than Nitro Methane....

If you going with a more comparable Nitro Parafin, I would think Nitro Ethane would be closer chemically.

(in reply to niche)
       Post #: 4

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/30/2003 6:48:18 AM   
AMB


 

Posts: 3840
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: online 		My last gallon of fuel I just bought is 0 nitro I bought it to breakin my MVVS61
before converting to diesel also ran a tank thru my Irvine runs fine it was morgan
I believe 17% syn oil added 3% castor. You can if needed run a thinner head gasket
MVVS gives you a couple extra with the engine to LOWER the compression to
prevent pre-ignition on nitro based fuel You may need a hotter plug
also reduces the corrosion problem. As far as nitro benzine it is now classified
as a strong carcinogen : Also was used to induce diabetes in lab animals
for drug and insulin testing. If you think you gotta have nitro stick with nitromethane
FAI fuel is non nitro and their events require it. I heard somewhere that amyl Nitrate
can be used as an ignition improver for glow?? it of course is used in diesel fuel
Eastern Europe for years has won a lot of events on non nitro. And from what
down under tells us not much used there.
\

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       Post #: 5

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 12/30/2003 2:37:59 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7651
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		The closest thing chemically to nitromethane are nitropopane and nitrobutane, they are much more expensive as nitromethane and not as effect as a fuel.

(in reply to niche)
       Post #: 6

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/6/2004 9:03:58 PM   
dwaynenancy


 

Posts: 75
Joined: 2/7/2002
From: Amarillo, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Nitrobenzene was used in the 50's and 60's in u-control. If you use it you can't hide it because of the shoe polish smell that remains. I made some in a high school chemistry class and you could smell the residue for at least 10 years afterward. There may be a problem with using it and your AMA insurance. Dwayne

(in reply to niche)
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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/6/2004 9:37:11 PM   
3d-aholic



Posts: 1992
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Notice: Virtually all if not all Nitroparafins are one of the following:

Carcinogens,
Suspected carcinogens or,
Potential Carcinogen

NIOSH REL: Potential Carcinogen, Lowest Feasible Concentration

And, that includes Nitromethane.

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/NewHomeRoc/11thConsideration.html
Look at second from the bottom.

Nitromethane
(75-52-5)
Nitromethane is used in specialized fuels, in explosives and in the synthesis of nitromethane derivatives, pharmaceuticals, agricultural soil fumigants and industrial antimicrobials.
Motion to list nitromethane as reasonably anticipated to be human carcinogen passed by unanimous vote (8/0).
Motion to list nitromethane as reasonably anticipated to be human carcinogen passed by unanimous vote (9/0).
Motion to list nitromethane as reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen passed by unanimous vote (9/0).

< Message edited by 2MuchThrow -- 1/6/2004 4:48:17 PM >

(in reply to Sport_Pilot)
       Post #: 8

RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/5/2006 3:37:45 AM   
estradajae


 

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/10/2005
From: MedellinAntioquia, COLOMBIA
Status: offline 		Omar

Yo he usado nitrobenzol en un galon de combustible que preparé hace como 6 años mas o menos, y no lo habia gastado del todo, en estos dias lo utilicé y es un excelente combustible para mí gusto, el motor funcionó perfectamente, mejorando la minima y con una maxima super mejorada en comparación con combustible sin nitro. Pero la gente en la pista ahí mismo me dijo que ahh que vea, que eso es carcinógeno que no se que...y entonces pues ya queda uno maluco para seguirlo usando, pero la berraquera en funcionamiento. Aquí en Medellín puede conseguirse muy barato un frasco de medio litro de nitrobenzol, y haciendo uno cuentas, le sale hacer 5 litros de combustible algo así como en 20 mil pesos, yo mismo me lo preparo.

To Jim Tomerson:

For me, nitrobenzene, the times that I've worked with this, it has been a great additive, my engine works screaming, and better reliability on the idle, no overheating... but I'm aware of the problems related to the nitrobenzene, and then I'm afraid to use it.

3d-aholic

Here in COlombia, there is no production of nitromethane, it's simple unavailable at reasonable cost... it's sometimes available when some LHS import it, but you just laught at the price, a 750ml bottle would cost the equivalent of 20 to 30 dollars or more, while nitrobenzene is readily available at a chemicals store, and a 500ml bottle would cost like 2 or threebucks.

If you are going to mix your own fuel here it's pretty cheap, you can mix 1 1/2 gallons with 15% of nitrobenzene for about 10 dollars, using 99.95% methanol and first press castor oil.... really cheap compared to the $20 that would cost a 5% nitro fuel gallon...thats why mix my own fuel... but I do it without any nitro (I just mixed with nitrobenzene once like 5 years ago and i left half of a gallon that i just burned last week with great results...)

I couldn't hide anyway, the guys at the field noticed that..

Jorge

_____________________________

Airplanes, engines and flying become an addiction...with not enough wallet

(in reply to niche)
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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/5/2006 3:55:06 AM   
w8ye



Posts: 17299
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Taylortown, OH, USA
Status: offline 		I did find that the nitro in nitrobenzene will dissapate in direct sunlight. Nitromethane is most likely the same way?

Enjoy,

Jim

< Message edited by w8ye -- 1/5/2006 3:58:16 AM >

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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/5/2006 6:35:59 PM   
MJD


 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 5/27/2003
From: Orangeville, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

The closest thing chemically to nitromethane are nitropopane and nitrobutane, they are much more expensive as nitromethane and not as effect as a fuel.


Nitroethane is closest, then nitropropane and nitrobutane in that order (1st four alkanes: Monkeys Eat Peeled Bananas):

Nitromethane CH3NO2
Nitroethane C2H5NO2
Nitropropane C3H7NO2
Nitrobutane C4H9NO2

Nitrobenzene C6H5NO2.

It is easy to see how the oxygen balance diminishes as the molecular weight increases, and thus thestoichiometric fuel:air ratio will increase accordingly diminishing the usefulness as a fuel additive.

W8YE: nitrobenzene is subject to photolysis, breaking down mostly into p-nitrophenol and nitrosobenzene when subjected to UV. The "nitro" doesn't go away per se, but if what you mean the effectiveness of the NB as a fuel additive goes to seed in direct sun, yeah I am sure it does. Brown bottles or metal cans.

Mike D.





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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/5/2006 6:49:57 PM   
MJD


 

Posts: 1541
Joined: 5/27/2003
From: Orangeville, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: w8ye

I did find that the nitro in nitrobenzene will dissapate in direct sunlight. Nitromethane is most likely the same way?

Enjoy,

Jim


Forgot to add: much less so if at all. I was unable in a quick search to find any photolysis data for nitromethane, but if I do find some I'll pass it along.

(in reply to w8ye)
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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/5/2006 6:50:06 PM   
w8ye



Posts: 17299
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Taylortown, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Mike,

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew it happened that nitro becomes less useful after exposure to UV light, I didn't know the exact reaction.

The word "stoichiometric" is very commonly used by engineers but us common folks don't know what it means. Here is the definition from the point of view that Mike is using it.
quote:

In terms of flammability limits of gas/air mixtures the stoichiometric mixture is the 'ideal' mixture that will produce a most complete combustion - ie; it is somewhere between the UEL (upper) and LEL (lower) explosive limits and an ignition at the stoichiometric point may result in the most severe deflagration, in relation to those near the upper and lower limits of flammability.


Enjoy,

Jim

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Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....

Club Saito Member #7
Original AMA #31261

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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/7/2006 4:25:02 PM   
B.L.E.


 

Posts: 1293
Joined: 8/27/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 3d-aholic

Hard to believe that of the Nitro Parafins....Nitro Benzene would be comparable to Nitro Methane. The Benzene group changes the organic nature of the compound dramatically. Also not sure why Nitro Benzene would be cheaper than Nitro Methane....

If you going with a more comparable Nitro Parafin, I would think Nitro Ethane would be closer chemically.


While studying organic chemistry in college, I was curious about the manufacture of nitromethane and researched it in the chemistry library. It's made by reacting propane with nitric acid in the gas phase at a very high temperature and pressure, this results in a mixture of nitroparafins that must be separated by distillation. There may be catylists involved also. Anyway, this is not something you can make in a high school chemistry lab. If it were, Angus Chemicals would have a lot more competition.

(in reply to 3d-aholic)
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RE: Nitro benzene Vs Nitro methane - 1/9/2006 3:44:59 PM