Lithium battery incidents (Full Version)

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Thud_Driver -> Lithium battery incidents (1/9/2004 5:37 PM)

While the turbine community has its issues with fires, the electric crowd is seeing a number of fire/expolsion safety issues with lithium batteries. While many of these are related to charging they are also having inflight & crash incidents as well. In the RCGroups Battery forum, I found this thread on a type of lithium battery that led to links on lithium incidents:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=bfc8b07fbc9456879750b6d23cb5adc9&threadid=186247

Go to post #13 and click on the links. The 8th link is a Lexus SUV that burnt to the ground. Serious stuff in the other threads too.



dbarrym -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/10/2004 12:01 AM)

While I've never had a problem with Li batteries in models (old style Duralites are the only ones I've ever used), I did have a (brand deleted) laptop burn up in 1998 when the batteries literally exploded.

Was sitting on my hotel bed typing some Emails when it went POOF and flame literally came out of the front and bottom of the laptop; it melted the bedspread and I grabbed it by the screen and tossed it into the shower, where it burned for some time (even with water spraying on it!). Created quite a ruckus as the FD was called - it toasted the shower stall pretty good. I had a heck of a time with the hotel settling the damage claim (well, our company lawyer did!). The PC manufacturer investigated and claimed the AC power supply/charger was faulty. Damn glad it was not on my lap at the time!

I don't use Li's as a result, was hoping the Li-po's were different...



Ehab -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/10/2004 5:02 AM)

The only advantage I see in Li-Poly and Li-Ion is the weight reduction for a given capacity ( compared to Nicads).

The Disadvantages are : Hi Price, Slow charging, Special charger, Regulator needed, need more capacity to get enough current compared to Nicads (hence more weight and cost), very sensitive to wrong charging (as suggested here) and finite shelf life.

So far, Nicads are the best value for the money... but they can get heavy in weight sensitive models.



rajul -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/10/2004 5:18 AM)

.........and those legislators are saying that NiCds are unsafe for the environment [8|]



Ian R -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/10/2004 9:58 AM)

I agree the potential is there with these cell for fire from mis charging.

But the reason I went for them in my turbine models is the redundancy offered, if you buy the correct packs, even if a cell goes down you still have power. You can tell you have lost a cell by a routine check between flights where the capacity will have been used quicker.

I am all for reducing points of failure so I have a dual set-up and switches that if fail stay live.

I have no connection with any supplier just a user of the products, just thought to add my views.

Ian



bruff -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/10/2004 5:58 PM)

LiPo batteries can burn. They do puff up when they go bad. It does take a while before they burn though. There is a video of a guy who tried on purpose the explode the battery. It took 54+ mins. of excess overcharging to get it to burn. It did burn though. The batteries are great for EDF use. Just have to repect them and follow a few safety rules. Most of the charging fires have been due to user error in setting up the charger. The Lexas fire was due to the batteries being in a plane crash which caused an internal short. He place the wreakage in the his car. A few minutes later the fire started. Just like when everyone was worried about Turbine fires, once everyone understood proper care and operation the fire thread whet way down. This will happen with LiPo batteries. In my EDF use they are worth the trouble. I weigh 1/3 less than NiCd batteries but have 4 time the compacity. So now my EDF flights are now a lot longer. I bought a good LiPo charger (Astro 109) which will charge the 8 AMP LiPo batteries in about 1 hour. Treat them with respect and they will give you great survice.
Bob



reo -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/21/2004 7:46 AM)

I love my Li Ions in a turbine application on both TCU and RX sides but would NEVER charge them unattended or at the very least be nearby....that said, I will continue to use them. Like everything else, you must know what you are dealing with and manage the risk.



SJN -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/21/2004 1:05 PM)

look at this video:

http://www.webx.dk/rc/lipofire.wmv



basimpsn -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/21/2004 2:16 PM)

I THINK ANY BATTERY WILL EXPLODE IF YOU OVER CHARGE IT. SOME QUICKER THAN SOME' REMEMBER CHARGING IS SENDING 5/10% MORE VOLTAGE THAN THE BATTERY CAPACITY. OVER CHARGING IS MORE VOLTAGE AND OVER HEATING CAUSING INSULATION TO MELT THEN INTERNAL SHORTAGE OF THE CELLS AND FINALLY FIRE.

I WILL NEVER PUT Lithium battery in my jet. $100 planes yes. :D



rajul -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/21/2004 2:26 PM)

Do Li-poly and Li-ion batteries have the same level of risk of catching fire ? Thanks



J B Hamilton -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/21/2004 11:49 PM)

WWW.Duraliteplus.com



Woketman -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/22/2004 2:21 AM)

SJN, that link no workie workie for me. Can you please tell me how I can see this? Thanks.



bruff -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/22/2004 2:55 AM)

Check this out for a LiPo battery fire video. http://www.rcvend.com/~dna/html/videos.html
Bob



rajul -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (1/22/2004 3:18 AM)

Wow ! That sock can really fume, just like mine when I don't wash it for a week ! LOL...........



studysession -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 10:13 PM)

I am surprised their are not more comments on this. I just picked up my 1st pack of LiPo's yesterday. Once of my sponsors gave them to me. He made me watch a video showing them catching fire before I could take thme to warn me about the safety issues.

I was very surprised.



seanreit -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 10:19 PM)

Keith, just go Duralite and the risk goes away with the charge safe circuitry they've got built in!



studysession -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 10:27 PM)

Thx - right now I have to hold off on getting anything new for my RC stuff. I spent enough. But do appreicate the advice.[:D]



JohnVH -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 11:07 PM)

Im running Lithium Ion's from Fromeco.org in a few of my planes, the cells have some safety built into them somehow Im told, the lithium polymer's are the dangerous ones I dont trust, my shocky loves them, but they seem 'fragile'



studysession -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 11:13 PM)

I just picked up 9 LiPo's yesterday from MTroniks to test on my car. I have not soldered them together yet. I will putting an inline fuse to to have it blow when it draw to many amps.

After watching the video, I am nervous on soldering them. When they reach 160 degrees they catch fire.



JohnVH -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 11:18 PM)

yeah, and in a crash, they burn, Ive seen that..



seanreit -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 11:20 PM)

It's not the discharge that's going to put it into flames at least in Jet Application. I don't know about car or electric flying. It's my understanding that charging is the more likely time that a fire can result.



studysession -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/26/2004 11:23 PM)

I am working on a speed car project. I have had NiMH's reach more than 230 - 250 degrees. The LiPo's are rated for a 30 amp discharge, so I am putting a 30amp inline fuse on the pack when I solder them. With the config I am using I could probably get away with a bigger fuse, but won't bother. If I blow the 30amp fuse, I will just go back to NiMH's for the speed car and use the LiPo's in my other cars.



sirrom -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/27/2004 1:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seanreit

Keith, just go Duralite and the risk goes away with the charge safe circuitry they've got built in!


Sean,
the charge safe circuitry will not stop a battery from going up in flame if improperly charged. I have seen a rx pack with the circuitry built in that has smoked, because they forgot to change the charge rate from their nicads. Just because it is duralite does not mean it can't burn.

Patrick.



seanreit -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/27/2004 2:18 AM)

Patrick, is that for real? I didn't ask, but assumed that essentially what "charge safe circuitry" meant was some sort of fuse that would pop and not allow any more charge.



sirrom -> RE: Lithium battery incidents (8/27/2004 4:48 AM)

Sean,
Yes that is for real. A friend was fast charging a 3000mah 12 cell nicad pack for an electric airplane with a nicad/nimh/lithium charger and forgot to change the charger over from nicad to lithium, plugged it in and started talking to someone else at the field. Well unfortunately it was duralite 1900 mah 2 cell pack and the charger was set at a very high charge rate, don't know what it was. After about 5-10 minutes it smoked the pack. Fortunately it did not catch fire but quite literally the pack was smoking.


Patrick.



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