HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING!  
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HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/12/2004 5:38:08 PM   
klbass



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From: Valdosta, , GA, USA
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Just to let everyone know that the folks over at Huntsville, AL have banned 3d flying at their 2004 Big Bird Flyin! There reasons include safety , noise, and most of all lack of interactive flying with traditional flyers. However, on the same note, their definition of "traditional" flying has included jets, warbirds, etc. Is a jet quieter or less dangerous than a 3d airplane??? I think not. Read the letter here:

http://www.rocketcityrc.com/events/2004-BigBird/bigbirdletter.html


My goal with this post is to show how thoughtless, and close minded the decision was made to ban the 3d flying. I hope that more CD's out there can take note of how not to make a decision. THere was no effort made to take on suggestions on how to incorporate a mix of traditional flying and 3d flying together at a large fly-in. To all CDs! out there..... Please ask for suggestions to solve a problem. Don't take the approach that this CD has. His decision has no benefit to anyone in the hobby and certainly not to the young future R/C pilot who wants to fly 3d!
       Post #: 1

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/12/2004 5:51:24 PM   
MajorTomski



Posts: 1388
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From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
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quote:



My goal with this post is to show how thoughtless, and close minded the decision was made to ban the 3d flying. I hope that more CD's out there can take note of how not to make a decision. THere was no effort made to take on suggestions on how to incorporate a mix of traditional flying and 3d flying together at a large fly-in. To all CDs! out there..... Please ask for suggestions to solve a problem. Don't take the approach that this CD has. His decision has no benefit to anyone in the hobby and certainly not to the young future R/C pilot who wants to fly 3d!


klbass, the note doesn't appear thoughtless. In fact it appears that they gave it a lot of thought before they created the restriction. If you read the whole note, they are interested in flying that covers some ground so that people can come and see it. True that all forms of RC flying can be boring, including boring holes in the traffic pattern. But at least there can be a traffic pattern. I get board sitting and waiting to fly my scale aircraft because someone is hovering/flipping/ tumbling/ harriering dead center over the runway. Please consider there a lot of us out here that find 3-D boring, bordering on obnoxious due to the way flying it tends to hog airspace.

MTC

Tom

(in reply to klbass)
       Post #: 2

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/12/2004 6:28:18 PM   
klbass



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Tom, I agree that 3d tends to turn away traditional flyers. I have no problems myself with traditional flyers. I myself enjoy flying a trainer for just boring holes into the sky. But I am also a 3d'r. My point was that you should not ban exclusively a certain style of flying. If you have a problem, take on suggestions to fix it. I can guarantee you that none of the 3d pilots who attended last year's fly-in were asked ....."Guys how can we fix this problem?" I am sure that the 3d guys would be happy to sacrifice time to allow traditional flying to take place. There are hundreds of solutions to this problem. Look at the amount of flying space they have there. They could have easily put the 3d guys on one end, traditional on the other. Or say have flying "block time!" Say 8-10 3d, 10-1 traditional, 1-3 helicopters, etc, etc, etc,. The point is that the CD took the "easy" road out. I look at a CD as a leader. And leaders have to be both open-minded and accommodating to all who fly. There are too many people like this CD who take the "lazy" way out. They don't want to put forth the effort, to fix a problem. They love to complain about problems, but never offer a solution to the problem. Thats just wrong as a CD. I am sure that his decision has turned away a future RC'er who was excited about getting a plane, because 3d was cool to him. I am not sure that his decision is even legal as far as having an AMA sanctioned event.

(in reply to MajorTomski)
       Post #: 3

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/12/2004 6:53:11 PM   
DocYates



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From: Killen, AL, USA
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kblass,
do you attend the big bird fly-in? If so you would probably know that the majority of the flying there at that meet tends to be scale subject, at least 70% of them any ways. Additionally, RCRC is one club that I have visited and spent time with that absolutely takes safety to heart. They follow thie rules, let you know what they are, and if you break them, someone will be standing beside you on the flight line telling you whatyou did wrong, and asking you not to do it again. In my opinion, most of the 3D flying that went on there in the past was nothing more than hovering over the runway, complicating an already very busy flight line. I don't advocate evry CD banning 3D, but I will certainly support this CD decision. The usual CD is Chuck Facemire, and he Chuck is a guy who doesn't mind telling you if you are in the wrong. They have a great field and it is a pleasure to fly with them. Don't let their new rule prevent you from going to a great fly-in.
Tommy

(in reply to klbass)
       Post #: 4

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/12/2004 11:29:19 PM   
rfw1953



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From: Hampton Cove, AL, USA
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At the conclusion of the 2003 Big Bird event there were a few harsh post placed on RCU pertaining to the conflict that developed between 3-D and the more traditional scale flight styles. As a whole, members of RCRC elected to not respond to such thread comments. It was determined that nothing positive would be gained in doing so. Our President responded once as the voice of the membership. My name is Roger Woodward, and I am the assistant CD for the 2004 Big Bird Fly In event. Unfortunately this topic has come up again. Balancing the information being posted may help those wondering what this is all about.

The history behind this decision: Originally 3-D was welcome, and each year two or three pilots would visit our field and put on a wonderful flight exhibition. Spectators, guest and members were in awe. There was much applause, and usually these pilots were honored with the top awards in recognition for their building craftsmanship. Just as with jet aircraft, or aerobatic helicopters, we usually have two or three flight exhibitions, which include these and other aircraft. When flight exhibitions take place the flight line is empty (as a courtesy) to allow these pilots to showoff their stuff. The members enjoy seeing the exhibitions as well, so the sky is theirs. Whether 3-D, jets, helicopters or giant war birds, these flight exhibitions are usually the high point in the event. Historically they have been the exception during the event and not the main focus of the event.

For years the Big Bird event has been a social gathering of pilots and builders from across the country. This is the one time during the year when members and guest bring out their best. We have been fortunate to witness the work of these fine builders and to see them fly their airplanes. We have also made many new friends along the way as well. This environment has encouraged many to attend this event in the past.

Each year more 3-D pilots began attending and pretty soon what was once a flight exhibition, during the Big Bird event, now became a conflict between traditional scale pilots and a few 3-D pilots. Unfortunately, guest and members didn't want to fly while the 3-D pilots were in the air. We could go on and on as to the rational for this, but nothing would be gained in doing so. I was there and heard several of the discussions as they took place. Furthermore, a few of the scale pilots left the event early. I heard one highly respected builder say as he left frustrated, “if it were up to me I would close this field down”. He made this comment resulting from not being able to hear his own airplane due to the noise from multiple 3-D aircraft hovering near the runway.

Chuck Facemire has been the CD and field chairman for years. He has served on every position in the club and has been one of the strongest leaders/drivers behind the clubs development and evolution. No one puts more hours of hard work into the club/field than Chuck. To call Chuck lazy is an outrage. Yes he has been my friend for years and I don’t mind standing up for him. I am confident the majority of the membership would do so as well. In fact it did.

During the event and after several complaints made by members and guest, Chuck, the event CD, made the tough call to limit flight times between 3-D and traditional scale flying - one hour for 3-D, and one hour and thirty minutes for scale. Time allocations were based on the number of registered pilots flying 3-D and all others. This decision was not made in a vacuum. Chuck discussed the matter with the club President, BOD members and several general members. He held a pilots meeting the next morning and made the announcement to all pilots. A few of the 3-D pilots made a fuss over the decision. There were a few harsh words and that was it. None of the scale pilots objected.

After the event a meeting took place, which included BOD members and active club members. I attended this meeting. The subject of 3-D during the event was discussed openly and objectively. After the conclusion of several meetings on the topic and discussions with club members, Chuck approached the BOD to consider banning 3-D from future Big Bird events. The BOD supported Chuck’s recommendation and decided to put the matter before the membership for a vote. It was unanimous with no votes against. This was a club decision.

3-D has been an open topic of discussion among members for a while. There are many issues confronting our hobby, club and the AMA pertaining to 3-D and other issues. We have not banned 3-D from our club, we have banned 3-D from this event. Maybe one day we will sponsor an extreme aerobatic event, but it’s not on the schedule at this time. This will no doubt affect the attendance for this years event. Our hope is that maybe this one time during the year we can leave 3-D at home and bring an airplane and flying style that fits the event. We do this for the War Bird and Pattern events, so this shouldn’t be that hard to adjust to. Our desire is to encourage those with interest in Big Bird scale, aerobatic, jet aircraft, sport and war birds to attend. We feel confident this topic is not just an issue for RCRC, but one that is being discussed in other clubs as well.

Please respect the decision of our club and come join us this year for our annual Big Bird Fly In event.

Alabama Big Bird Fly In
9-10 July 2004, Huntsville Al.
www.rocketcityrc.com

Sincerely,

Roger F. Woodward
Assistant CD, 2004
Al. Big Bird Fly In


_____________________________

Good Luck and Good Flying,
Roger

(in reply to DocYates)
       Post #: 5

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 1:14:30 AM   
JRozman-delete



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From: Cordova, TN,
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Is seems you should have banned the 3D pilots that were unwilling to comprimise.

Ban the idiots, not the disipline.

Wouldn't that make more sense?

Jess

(in reply to rfw1953)
       Post #: 6

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 1:16:46 AM   
JRozman-delete



Posts: 407
Joined: 1/18/2002
From: Cordova, TN,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: klbass

Tom, I agree that 3d tends to turn away traditional flyers. I have no problems myself with traditional flyers. I myself enjoy flying a trainer for just boring holes into the sky. But I am also a 3d'r. My point was that you should not ban exclusively a certain style of flying. If you have a problem, take on suggestions to fix it. I can guarantee you that none of the 3d pilots who attended last year's fly-in were asked ....."Guys how can we fix this problem?" I am sure that the 3d guys would be happy to sacrifice time to allow traditional flying to take place. There are hundreds of solutions to this problem. Look at the amount of flying space they have there. They could have easily put the 3d guys on one end, traditional on the other. Or say have flying "block time!" Say 8-10 3d, 10-1 traditional, 1-3 helicopters, etc, etc, etc,. The point is that the CD took the "easy" road out. I look at a CD as a leader. And leaders have to be both open-minded and accommodating to all who fly. There are too many people like this CD who take the "lazy" way out. They don't want to put forth the effort, to fix a problem. They love to complain about problems, but never offer a solution to the problem. Thats just wrong as a CD. I am sure that his decision has turned away a future RC'er who was excited about getting a plane, because 3d was cool to him. I am not sure that his decision is even legal as far as having an AMA sanctioned event.


I think you hit the nail on the head. It is easy to just ban it and wash your hands of it.

Have a good flyin.

Jess

(in reply to klbass)
       Post #: 7

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 1:36:45 AM   
klbass



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From: Valdosta, , GA, USA
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Roger, Your response is appreciated. Posting of that response on the club's website may indeed answer many questions. However, I am sure it is a mute point now, but it just doesn't seem that there was enough input from each side to come up with a solution. The CD's ultimate decision was made in-house. Again, I think more effort could have been made directly with the folks involved. I think his decision was the easiest one to make. Just eliminate the problem altogether, rather than "work" towards a solution. Anyway, I'll rest my case with your response, but I definitely think posting of your response on your club's website will ease the pain of seeing "3d-banned" on your website.

(in reply to rfw1953)
       Post #: 8

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 2:32:10 AM   
Arculis29


 

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As usual, Roger has described the process which led to the CLUB decision in eloquent terms. As usual, Roger has been diplomatic reflecting the gentleman that he is. As for Chuck, he is honest beyond belief, dedicated to our club above all standards, fully supportive of the AMA safety code and painfully disdainful of scofflaws; on the field, in the air and on the highway.
Our decision was made last year, it was announced last year, and will not be changed this year. The big bird event will take place as stated no matter what anyone thinks or says. One may yell, scream, insult, vilify, chastise, criticize or simply sound off behind the anonymity of the net; that is your privilege.
Do as you wish.
However, if you don't like the rules, then don't come to the event. We won't miss you at all.
If you like the rules, then come to the field and have fun with the greatest group of modelers you'll ever meet.
I am Sherwin Arculis, 74 years of age, an RC pilot since 1969, 256 883 9838.

_____________________________

Arc

(in reply to klbass)
       Post #: 9

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 3:38:58 AM   
ChuckAuger



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From: Pampa, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rfw1953

The history behind this decision: Originally 3-D was welcome <snip>

Each year more 3-D pilots began attending


Well, who can argue with that?? More pesky people show up, we'll just ban them. Kudos.

And Sherwin...
quote:

However, if you don't like the rules, then don't come to the event. We won't miss you at all.
Great attitude!! With all the great innovations in building and flying RC aircraft that have roots in 3D, but have spilled over into other aspects of RC, it's truely refreshing to see somebody committed to using stone axes and bear skins. Kudos to you, too!!

Oh, my name is Jeff Williams.


_____________________________

Breaking the Speed of Sound, Straight Down!

(in reply to rfw1953)
       Post #: 10

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 4:41:42 AM   
bentgear


 

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Joined: 3/25/2002
From: Brandon, MS, USA
Status: online
This is just a little sad. I hope I am not he only 3D fan that does not IN ANY WAY have a problem with the fly in being no 3D. What if at the next ProBro event 45 mustangs show up wanting to make low high speed passes down the runway - all day long.

As long as the rules are published well in advance I think a club should be able to have any restrictions they want. Now if nobody shows up they might rethink everything before they try again.

Ed M.

(in reply to ChuckAuger)
       Post #: 11

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 3:49:10 PM   
rfw1953



Posts: 1346
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From: Hampton Cove, AL, USA
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quote:

ChuckAuger - This is a great and noble attitude, we all want to have fun!! But at the Nashville ProBro, the Sunday flying was open to local flyers. This caused a few problems and close calls as the locals tended to fly a pattern whereas the ProBros tended to 3D in place. The mix of styles will cause conflicts. Profile or not, everybody needs to understand it's a 3D fly-in.



quote:

ChuckAuger - Man, if ya'll are dissin Houston just because of YNOT, get real. There are lots of guys there besides him, and he don't even fly profiles. I go to hang with my buds. There might be some folks there I don't see eye to eye with, but that don't mean I'm gonna pu$$ out and not come. I'll show up and grind them into the mud before I'll pass on an event. But that's just me... ]


The words above equate to a flight attitude. This is what the club voted unanimously to avoid. Yes, the mix of styles does cause a conflict. We agree.

3-D, or 'Extreme Aerobatics', has evolved to become it's own event. We have simply chosen to not have 3-D during our Big Bird Fly In for obvious reasons. As stated, we have not banned 3-D from the field. The club has simply made a decison on how it wants to organize and promote our annual Big Bird Fly In. There are plenty of 3-D, or 'Extreme Aerobatic' events for those who specialize in this style of flying to attend. Please do so. We encourage it. Likewise, please respect our decision just as you would if this were a Pattern or War Bird event.


_____________________________

Good Luck and Good Flying,
Roger

(in reply to bentgear)
       Post #: 12

RE: HUNTSVILLE BIG BIRD MEET HAS BANNED 3d FLYING! - 1/13/2004 4:11:50 PM   
rfw1953