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Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:16 PM   
BHunn3


 

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From: Orosi, CA, USA
Status: offline 		OK, let me state up front this is entirely my own fault for not directly asking for a quote. The only thing we really discussed was that he charged $10 an hour. I expected to pay $200 to maybe $300 tops for this project after talking to several people over a period of time about getting this kit built for me.

I recently had an old Midwest SHots Kit built and covered for me. I supplied everything including engine. I nearly fainted when the guy said he spent 65 hours on it and the bill was $700!!! for a plane that was worth $150 tops I am just about ready to throw up. I'm just about ready to tell him to shove it and he can keep the whole thing for his trouble.

Did I get the big one if you know what I mean; or am I way out of line here.

< Message edited by BHunn3 -- 2/20/2004 1:16:20 AM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:22 PM   
LearjetMech


 

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Status: offline 		I would say that assuming someone that can build and cover a kit in 20-30 hours and do a good job, well.... is not human! I just built a MidStar 40 and probably averaged 2-3 hrs a night on it! IT TOOK ME FOUR MONTHS. Suck it up pay the bill and lesson learned! You should have settled on a total price to build it rather than an hourly rate! Just my .02!

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:26 PM   
dennis



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Status: offline 		Actually he's out of line on the price. Having built that plane I know that it is capable of being built and covered in 20 hours of work. Sounds like tha man is charging you for the time he spent deciding what he was going to do next.
In the future you don't agree to an hourly rate. Most reputable builders that I know have a fixed price on a certain job.
As it is You'have agreed to the terms and if he sticks to them then you have only the 2 options that you have already covered. It is a bummer!

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:28 PM   
R8893


 

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Status: offline 		BHunn3,
I don't think that is terribly out of line depending on how complex the covering is and if the plane is ready to fly. I am an experienced builder but have only kept track of building time twice. I spent 65 hours on a Great Planes UltraSport with retracts(35 to build airframe and 30 to cover in multi-color MonoCoat). I built a BUSA Nieuport 17 and it took a few minutes less than 100 hours. That plane had Worldtex fabric. In the industrial world I always tried to get time and material jobs bid with a "not to exceed figure".

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:37 PM   
AJF--2


 

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Status: offline 		I have a few locals that build some for me. Some do great work at a reasonable price-- some do not! I will not do the internet thing again! I got burned real bad by a builder here on RCU. He quoted a price and I paid it-in advance- paid to ship the plane to him-and gave him money for accessories- he kept it a year and 7 months along with all of my equipment. I finally got it all back-(less my money)- but still unbuilt and since I don't have time to build. I just sold it for what I could get out of it--IOW-not much. He is not a bad person, just somebody who bit off more than he could chew. Bottom line is this--It does take a long time to construct a kit-- especially if the work is of high quality. I ALWAYS GET A QUOTED PRICE UP FRONT! BTY--That is why ARFs are so popular these days.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 9:50 PM   
BHunn3


 

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Status: offline 		The plane was covered in a single color (I supplied the covering), nothing particularly diffiuclt about the build. I too estimated maybe 20-30 hours tops. I haven't seen anything but pics and haven't spoken to him about his labor yet. He looks like he has done a good job. But it does appear opinion could go either way on this one. This was A REAL HARD lesson to learn! I'm going to end up with $1100 or $1200 in a this thing or be kissing off the $400 I already paid for kit, engine, servos etc. God, what an idiot.

Here is a pic of the plane.

Attachments
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< Message edited by BHunn3 -- 2/19/2004 10:14:56 PM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 10:26 PM   
Primodus



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Status: offline 		$700 and 65 hours to build a profile? Nuts.

just my .03 (inflation)

Luke

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 10:28 PM   
LearjetMech


 

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Status: offline 		Hell I would of done it for a couple hundred bucks!

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 10:35 PM   
swooper



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Status: offline 		I don't see how you can expect skilled work for ten bucks an hour, that's dishwasher pay around here. Anyone who can build in the 20-30 hours and do a good job should get paid a LOT more than $10/hr. You set the terms of the deal and he delivered, so how could it be a rip-off? I think you said it best when you valued the project at $150, doesn't sound like you'd have been satisfied with anything less than ripping him off. Suck it up, pay the man, and learn the lesson.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 11:09 PM   
BHunn3


 

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Status: offline 		Oh, Swooper, straight to the point.

In retrospect I think the thing that has p***** me off; aside from the point that I should have asked. Was that he presented himself, not as a professional builder, charging a professional price. But as a good ol' boy who loved working on planes and "sure would love to do it for me". For $700 I would have loved to do it for me also. but I get all your points. All I was really trying to find out here is if this was generally considered a fair price for the kind of work done. I think due to the simplicity of the kit and covering it was at least $400 off the mark. I am trying to educate myself for future occassions when a build request might be made. Although after this it will be a "long" time.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 11:22 PM   
Yak18



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Status: offline 		THIS is why ARFS are so popular. Factories build a far better airplane for far less money than a skilled american builder can. Were it me, I would have charged you $25.00 an hour and it would have taken longer than 65 hours...BUT, I would have been honest and told you UP FRONT that it's not economically feasable for me to build it for you. Your builder is a CROOK! And yes you have been taken. Sorry.

Yak

< Message edited by Yak18 -- 2/19/2004 6:25:51 PM >


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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 11:41 PM   
Azcat59


 

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Status: offline 		Without taking sides in this issue, it might be instructive to build one or two yourself, which will give you a lot better idea of what is involved.

I never agree to build for other people, but many times I build a plane that I know I will be bored flying, just because I want to build it. And when I sell it, usually for at least twice the material cost in it, I figure I probably make less than $1 an hour, maybe even a dime.... but I figure it's like getting paid to go fishing for one who likes to build

I can sure appreciate your dilema. You will have a whole lot more in it than it is worth.

Clair

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/19/2004 11:43 PM   
Azcat59


 

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Status: offline 		Another thought just after I clicked "Send"....maybe you ought to sit down with the gentleman, and eyeball to eyeball point out that the final price is really way out of line for what the plane is worth. See if you can't negotiate a deal that is more fair to you, but not totally unreasonable to him. Worth a shot.

Clair

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 12:21 AM   
CAPtain232



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Status: offline 		No matter what, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to agree on a price....If you simply agreed to $10 an hour, that left the door wide open....I am not saying he is right for doing this, but that you agreed to it plain and simple...You said it is a $150 plane...did he install the radio gear and the engine...If he built it, covered it and did the engine and radio install, then I can see where someone such as myself that has to do the best I can to do a perfect build would easily get 60 to 70 hours in it.......covering alone is sometimes the biggest pain and a major time consumer...especially if the graphix are pretty detailed.....

I am on your side, I think he way overcharged you.....but you agreed to it

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 12:26 AM   
LearjetMech


 

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Status: offline 		Wow, for 700 bucks I could build 3 nice mid-high priced kits (not in 65 hours ea. either)!!! Sounds like you should either A) start buying ARF's, B) Learn how to build your own kits and that way maybe you wont criticize other peoples work, or C) collect Hot Wheels cuz they are cheap and pre-built. Dont take up a lot of space either!

I find it amazing that almost everyone on here said that you made the mistake, yet you still have an excuse! You made an agreement with this fellow. Now you are flying off the handle about the bill. It reminds me of some of my customers. Plane comes in dead ass broke full of passengers. Pilot gets out and says I dont care what it takes I need it fixed ASAP, we have important people on board and they have to get to this meeting in the Cayman Islands (blah blah blah). Naturally it is Sunday and the "drop-in" OT rate is like 180 bucks an hour in labor. So after troubleshooting the problem the techs reply....Well sir we found the problem and you have a dead IC 600 computer. We have a new one in stock here but it is $110,000. We can have a repaired one down from Kansas in the morning for $17K exchanged. Well he picks the new one and off he goes. Three weeks later the guy is ****ing and moaning about his $115K bill. What gives? You dont go into a restuarant and order something and freak when you get the bill do you. All prices are in front of you on the menu, just as I suspect this deal was. You should of asked for a "CAP" on price, or said call me when you reach 20 hours and stop!!! By the way, when people dispute their bill like that at my work, depending on who they are and how much business they give us we usually cut em a deal. If we have never seen them before we say "pay or see us in court with a mechanic's lien". Ball is in your court. Some lessons are tougher than others!

.....By the way I'll buy that plane off of ya for $200 cash!!!

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 12:32 AM   
TLH101



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Status: offline 		For $700 a pop, I would build and sell all I could, especially if the buyer is supplying all the materials. Hell, I would do all you want for $400 a pop. You got "your eyes poked out". I think I would tell the guy to keep it and take the loss, but make sure everybody knows. If he was an stand-up person, he would have let you know that the bill was beginning to get way over the value of the plane, long before the price got away from him. I think 20-30 hrs max is a good estimate, especially since it is only one color. Your paying for all his coffee breaks, toilet stops, daydreaming, and all the time he even thought about that plane.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 12:57 AM   
Bowfish


 

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Status: offline 		I am a fairly new builder but it certainly looks like you got screwed. It sure seems like thats a lot for a profile plane. It also might be that the guy is a crook and simply does not want to give you the plane back...he might be flying it right now for all you know and he is hoping that you will tell him to keep it. I build because I love to build. I would have done it for $200 too but like was already stated you dont expect to get paid for things you like doing.

However it is your fault because you didn't work out agreements ahead of time for a cap price or at least an estimate of the total time. You agreed to the hourly cost so you should pay the bill. You might can negotiate the hours and ask for a detailed timesheet if he does not come off the 65 hours. I too would pay it and take it in the hind end.

< Message edited by Bowfish -- 2/19/2004 6:59:12 PM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 1:46 AM   
MikeSell



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Status: offline 		It sounds like everyone agrees that they wouldn't pay that price for that plane. A deal was struck, a verbal contract was reached. Legally you don't have a much choice unless he agrees to alter the contract. You can neglect to pay and he can sue you and collect and possibly keep your plane too if you don't pick it up. You can pay the man, learn a lesson, and fly the plane.
If the plane is sub standard you might be able to negate the contract but you bear the responsibility of proving it. It is always better to spell everything out on paper before work starts.
I find many inexpensive kits require much time to build and finish. Four stars, thunderbugs, super sportsters, and Sig Seniors & Senoiritas are all labor intensive. I have seen built examples of these at swap meets bring more than more expensive kits when finished. If you pay someone by the hour to build it sounds like a business. If someone charges you by the job and the price is low expect either he just does it for fun or the quality will be questionable.
ARF building quality is often questioned. It is a mass production proceedure employing production tooling and building aids. Custom building is a skilled trade which requires more expertise and time. Every trade and profession has geniuses and fools find out which you are dealing with before you commit.

< Message edited by MikeSell -- 2/19/2004 8:49:49 PM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 2:17 AM   
CafeenMan



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Status: online 		I would have charged $250 with everything installed ready to fly. That's assuming it's the standard size kit - not the big one.

edit: Plus shipping. That price means you provide everything except glue and sandpaper. If I buy hardware for your kit, then I tack that onto the price at cost, but I always get it approved by you first.

Yes, you got thoroughly hosed. THat kit can be built ready to fly in a week tops.

< Message edited by CafeenMan -- 2/19/2004 9:19:24 PM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 2:22 AM   
CafeenMan



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yak18

THIS is why ARFS are so popular. Factories build a far better airplane for far less money than a skilled american builder can.

I can build a better plane than any ARF I've ever seen. My price is higher though, but I can't afford to work for the same pay as Chinese factory workers. If you want a good custom built, then hire a good (and ethical) custom builder. If you want something that flies ok at a cheap price then get an ARF.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 3:04 AM   
John Wells



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Status: offline 		BHunn, first I must say that this is my own opinion and not that of RC Universe. Now with that said; The first thing I would do is find out how many planes the builder has under his or her belt. An experienced R/C builder knows that you could buy a comparable ARF for much less than is being asked for the labor alone. There was a deal struck and perhaps you didn't realize how much time it was going to take; however, if the builder has much experience, he or she should've known they were racking up the hours and dollars. After they reached about TWICE the price of a comparable ARF, wouldn't one think they (the builder) should've in good faith, called you and said, "hey, this thing is getting expensive!" No phone call or notification stinks to high heaven. I stopped counting the number of R/C planes I built when I reached 175. It's probably around 225 now. For years, I would build and cover a .10-.90 size plane (excluding exotic covering and multi-engines) for another kit of the same type. I'd tell the person to just buy 2 kits and bring their covering and glue. Those days have pretty much passed, and most people nowadays expect much more for their labor in the U.S. The dollar amount requested from you in my opinion is ridiculously high, and you may be stuck because of your agreement. Remember that nice goes a long ways, so try to negotiate. A good approach might be to find an ad for a comparable arf and show the builder the price, then explain that you had no idea yours would cost that much. I believe that if they have a conscience and can read the ad, they should lower their price a bunch. Again, this is solely my opinion.

John Wells
AMA 138744

< Message edited by RCU-RCU -- 2/19/2004 9:05:30 PM >

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 4:38 AM   
aimmaintenance



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Status: offline 		I've got about 14 things runnin through my head about this one and I can't put even 1 into words.

Ya you got a bad deal.

No I wouldn't pay it.

No he can't do a damn thing about it.

Ya he'll probably keep your plane.

You aren't LEGALLY bound to pay more than the average. (the average pretty much has been set right here in these posts/ about $200)(of course a court of law will come up with their own averages, their own way)

To back up these statements that I'm claiming as FACT I'll use Ohio/ Mich laws governing self employed contractors. (not the actual law that no one could possibly understand but an example)
If you hire me at $25 per hr to change a faucett that you supplied, and it takes me 2 days to do it. I give you a bill for $400 bucks. You tell me to stick it. I sue you. The courts award me $125/ refering to the standard.
When it comes to pissin matches like this, the courts are gonna find a STANDARD to go on.

By the way/ I average about $60 a faucett if anyone needs one.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 4:49 AM   
SpeeDFX


 

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Status: offline 		Even though it sucks I think you have a verbal contract with this man. You guys made a deal and even though it's not what you expected, the price being much higher then you thought it would be, you must pay.

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 5:07 AM   
Kevin Greene



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Status: offline 		The HOTS is not a profile plane.....It just appears that way in the photo. The top of the fuselage tapers as it nears to top. The fuselage is basically an Ugly Stick box type fuselage with a triangular shaped upper portion. Anyway---The guy you contracted to build this plane overcharged for his billable hours. I framed up one of those on ONE Saturday!!! Had it covered and flying by the end of the week, working on the plane after getting home from work!!! In comparison, I know a guy that kept up with his hours building a BVM BobCat XL turbine jet sport plane. To frame up this plane took him 55 hours and the BobCat is a MUCH more complex structure even though it has a fiberglass fuselage. I'm guessing you paid for him to watch the glue dry... I feel sorry for ya!!!!

Kevin

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RE: Did I Get Ripped on a Kit Build? - 2/20/2004 5:41 AM   
themanimal


 

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Status: offline 		Man that would piss me off indeed. If you haven't paid for it already I would call him on the phone and ask him if he thinks he could fit that plane (wings and all) up his ass.

That's total BS. I built that same damn plane and like someone else said, it took my two or three weeks of afterwork time. That guys full of it and he knows it.

if you don't want to build, arf it.

in summary DO NOT PAY THIS MAN!

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