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Caproni Ca.42 - 2/23/2004 4:51:52 PM   
jchumley



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This is a plane that you don't see all that often.

I started this discussion with a question in the Aerodynamics forum where I received a lot of excellent advice. I think now it is more of a Sratch build subject. I am building it for the upcoming Dawn Patrol Games this spring at CCRCC in southern MD.

http://www.charlescountyrc.org/wwi_profile.htm
http://www.charlescountyrc.org/recon_info.htm

It is based on the construction techniques of the Fighters for this series designed by Rich Foch. Flat botom airfoil, Wing struts glued into the wings etc. I was originally going to go with three Saito 30s but BMathews in the aerodymamics forum has convinced me to loose the middle engine and its attendant weight aft of the CG and necessary ballast in the nose (probably at least 1 1/2 lbs total). Since the middle pod is bolted on, I can always try it both ways.

The wings will be a solid structure, all glued together. The booms and center pod are detachable.

The very tall tail skids are still a questionmark. THey need to be tall so the bottom wing and bomb housing clear the ground. They need to be light because I don't want any extra weight back there. Any ideas?

I will stretch the nose an inch or so to put the battery as far forward as possible along with any lead that I need to add.

Any other comments or advice is welcome. I have Solartex to cover it with and the only paint will be on the Italian colors on the rudders.

I should finish framing it up this week and have it ready to fly (if it will fly) in two or three weeks if I don't run into any unforseen issues.

Jeff

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< Message edited by jwc-RCU -- 2/23/2004 1:34:23 PM >
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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 2/23/2004 8:53:07 PM   
BMatthews



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You're right, that much music wire would weigh a ton!

I know it's not high tech but I suggest bamboo for the skids. Get some good stuff from outdoor plant stores or good quality chop sticks for the material. It's flexible but very fatigue resistant and lighter than most other options I can think of other than custom molded (because of the curves) kevlar and epoxy layups. Bind the parts at the joints with high strength carpet thread and then soak the binding with thin CA to lock it together. Bits of music wire on the lower ends will act as anti wear shoes or add small wheels for steerable landing gear. In fact if your runway is paved then the wheels, steerable or fixed, is a good idea or it'll be too easy to ground loop it. For grass the bare skids would be fine.

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/5/2004 4:28:13 PM   
dicknadine


 

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suggest you make a take off dolly, skids fit into slots, NOT attached. this will get you off the ground. landing--DO IT on the grass. would suggest leaving the dolly on till you have a couple of flight over with. it helps calm the shakes. dick

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/8/2004 11:00:32 AM   
jchumley



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Rather than a dolly, I am going to add a removeable long skid like an avro 504. If it tries to tip over, the skid should help keep it upright. If it DOES tip over, I suspect I will be rebuilding the tail section. The rudders are pretty vulnerable.

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< Message edited by Doppeldecker -- 3/8/2004 3:49:22 PM >

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/11/2004 7:25:04 PM   
dicknadine


 

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and I thought my scratch built planes were complicated. congratulations. dick

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/23/2004 3:35:42 AM   
jchumley



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Just posting the latest pics. Might be in the air in the next two weeks. (I am rushing to be ready for an event on April 4) Still a good bit to do but mostly busy work. Have to brace the tail skids, set up the main gear, install servos for the tail surfaces and throttles etc.

Jeff

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/23/2004 6:31:44 AM   
BMatthews



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She's looking great.

I'm just thinking about how tall this model is and in looking over the 3 views. Seems like the engines are going to be a LONG ways above the ground. You may want to do the landing gear in such a way that you can cheat a little and have the wheels come out a bit further forward than true scale. On grass it may be a noseover machine. I noted that the 4 wheel gear arrangement has the forward wheel quite a way in front of the balance point. That's a good thing and it may prevent the nose overs that I'm thinking of.

Still it would be good to have a plan B in the back of your mind.

I'm looking forward to hearing about the final specs and how it flies.

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/23/2004 3:16:08 PM   
jchumley



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Thanks Bruce:

THe Bamboo tail idea sure was a good one. I bought a big pack of bamboo skewers and found a dozen or so that are good and hard and straight. THey don't weigh much more than balsa. I am going to heat and bend the end and run one straight down from under the rudder and lash and glue them together. I put hard points in the horizontal stabilizer a few inches from the tips so I could run wires from the hard point, down to the skid and up to the opposite boom for side-to-side bracing.

THe wing "boxkite" is very rigid and I don't think I will need any landing or flying wires but when I add all the heavy pieces I may change my mind.

I am going to extend the main gear a bit but I am only using the front sets of wheels for now. I am running short on time and can go back and add the others later if necessary.

I too am concerned about nosing over. I plan to add temporary extended skids for the initial flights. If it goes over, the rudders are very vulnerable. Getting it put together (you can pick it up and nothing falls off) makes me realize how short and tall it is!

With no servos, engines or battery it balances at about 40% of the chord. I will probably have to add lead but not too much. I am using an 1800 ma battery that will add a good bit of weight to the nose.

Jeff

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/23/2004 6:36:37 PM   
BMatthews



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It sure sounds like you've got it all covered already. That's good news about the empty balance point too. I kind of feel like the "uncle" waiting on the birth of a nephew since you used some of my suggestions Of course in the end the decisions were all your's but if I was able to help then all the wear and tear on my fingers is worth it.

If it flies as good as it looks you'll have a winner for sure.

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/29/2004 8:22:46 PM   
jchumley



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Well Bruce, six days to the Dawn Patrol Games and here she is. If it is going to fly in the event beginning Sunday at 11:00 am, it will probably have initial flight testing Sunday at 8:00 am. Its going to be close but it is possible.

The little steps take the longest time!

Any hints for bending bamboo? I have tried boiling it and also tried soaking in amonia and bending around a hot iron. The stuff doesn't want to bend more than just a little bit!

Jeff

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 3/30/2004 1:10:33 AM   
BMatthews



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The problem is that it needs to be hot all the way through to bend. If you can keep the bend area in boiling water it may be hot enough. Alternatley if you use a heat gun on high with the little air scoop on the end so it sort of contains the heated air then it will probably get hot enough.

One thing for sure, every time I've bent bamboo you KNOW when it's hot enough. Below the critical temp and it's springy like steel wire. Hit the right temp and it turns into a limp noodle.

If you're brave and have a good supply of the bamboo you could even try a propane torch. Start far and move in SLOWLY to give the bamboo time to heat all the way through evenly.

Of course all MY bamboo work so far has been with little 1/16x1/8 pieces or smaller for parts of my rubber old timer and scale models so you're on your own...

If it just does NOT seem to want to cooperate you could split the bamboo into flat stripes, bend it and then laminate it back together with some epoxy.

PS: I wish I could be there to see it fly. This is going to be one to turn heads for sure. All the best with the weekend.

< Message edited by BMatthews -- 3/29/2004 8:11:57 PM >


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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 4/1/2004 12:42:45 PM   
BigglesFliesUndone



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Hi there. I just found this thread doing a google search for info on Capronis. Wish I had found it earlier as perhaps we could have helped each other ?? Reason is I too am building a Caproni (is there any plane not been modelled ??) However, Im going the easier way with a Caproni Ca 3.4 it has only two wings. Its just a prototype (6ft span) for a larger more scale model assuming it flys OK
Ive attached a pic of the build so far. Like yourself I have opted for only two working engines .25 glow with the rear pusher a dummy. Best of luck with your maiden and please keep us informed how it goes.

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 4/1/2004 2:17:53 PM   
jchumley



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Very nice. Looks like the real thing.

You are building much more scale than I am but I too am planning a larger detailed scale version. This one is for an actual combat type event where it will tow a ribbon and be protected by a flight of fighters against a flight of enemy fighters. The risk of damage is high. That, and the fact that I have only had about 3 months to work on it in my spare time meant that I could only go semi sport sorta kinda scale. I hope to fly it this Sunday. I decided to go with three engines after all. It looks like it will still come in around 6.5 lbs and be a real floater. Can't wait to fire up the three saito .30s. should sound really cool. It should probably fly easily at considerably less than full throttle. (if it flies at all!)

You have an advantage with the Ca.3, there are several good reference works on it. I have Gregory Alegi's Windsock Datafile on it and it is good. THe Ca.42 is not nearly as well documented. I have one book in Italian that shows some detailed construction drawings of the center nacelle, the landing gear and tail skids and some of the strut mounting hardware. anything that I can't document I will use the Ca.3 documentation. I am not sure whether I will go 1/8 scale (12' wingspan) or 1/12 scale (8'). I can tell you that I will be tired of making ribs by the time I am done. Even for this one which has much wider rib spacing, I had to make over 150 ribs!

I have heard that the Caproni Museum in Trento, Italy has a model of a commercial version of the Ca.42 but have been unable to contact them about it. WHen I get to designing a scale version, some time spent with that model would be very helpful.

Your rudders look great with all the wires and braces. How did you attach the bracing rods to the center rudder without inhibiting rotation and what mechanism did you use to fit the rudders to the elevator?

Jeff

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 4/1/2004 4:02:35 PM   
BigglesFliesUndone



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Hi again .. nice to communicate with someone with a similar interest in the unusual, especially WW1 era which I prefer. I was aware of the plane you are modelling but decided on the "easier" CA 36 for the following reasons .. its easier to balance with the front gondola . battery (and unfortunately a little lead) will go right up front. More stable landing gear ... is it a tricycle or taildragger and last but not least ..better documentation. I too have the datafile from Albatros and using its 3 vu as basis of the plan.. also a website has over 50 good pics of the one in an american museum (Patersons ??) . Ive been at it on and off for about 2 months .. although it looks detailed .. its all quickly done (see pic) Origionally it was going to be 2 x .15SC glows .. but now I think that may just be a tad marginal so will probably have to get two .25 but that is still debatable as its only to find out its flying characteristics before doing a 108" version powered by two 52 fourstrokes. Not sure of the size of yours ?? but if about 6 -7 ft and around 6 lb ?? perhaps be aware of the power of three .30 two strokes ? I have a partial built beaufighter at 6.5 ft span ..weight about 8-9lb designed for two .32 two strokes !! so keep the throttle down. Someone also told me of a chap that won an AMA control line event with a caproni 3.6 at 72" span and 6.5lb powered by two .25's so Im in the right ball park. Controls are as the original eg closed loop. Instead of pulleys I just put the rigging through brass tube bent to right angles with a "gentle" bend works very well and no slop !(see pic)
Ive a few ideas on the proper scale job I will start in a month or so so perhaps we can swap ideas on the "real" models..cheers Donny

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RE: Caproni Ca.42 - 4/1/2004 4:08:49 PM