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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> RC Fuels >> auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel
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auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 7:03:08 AM   
AndyW


 

Posts: 1890
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		In a recent post about converting a four stroke to diesel, Motorboy (Jens) makes reference to using auto diesel instead of kerosene because it has better lubricating qualities. I've read a number of times that one should NOT use auto diesel,, that hardware store kero was OK but jet fuel was best. I've also been told that auto diesel runs fine.

Next question is oil content. The 1/3rd formula means 33% oil. I've always wondered why so much oil? Todays glows run at 18%. If a glow will do OK at 18%, wouldn't the same engine, converted to diesel be OK? Does oil content have to do more with the engine as in early design like PAWs compared to the ABCs of today?

Any opinions on the subject?

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 12:50:59 PM   
LouW



Posts: 798
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Moreland, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Auto diesel fuel is ordinary kerosene to which a dye has been added to show that the road tax has been paid. Jet fuel is ordinary kerosene to which an anti-bacterial agent has been added and sometimes an anti-icing fluid. The anti-bacterial agent prevents the growth of hydrocarbon eating bugs at the interface between kerosene and water. The anti-icing fluid is added on a seasonal basis and is sometimes added at the pump.

There is no difference in either product as a diesel fuel.

(in reply to AndyW)
       Post #: 2

RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 2:18:01 PM   
AndyW


 

Posts: 1890
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Thanks Lou,

It looks like kero is kero is kero. That makes mixing fuel a lot less complcated.

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Andy Woitowicz

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 3:28:56 PM   
Hobbsy



Posts: 10426
Joined: 12/2/2001
From: Colonial Beach, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Auto Diesel fuel is #2 furnace oil with the dye added. This is a lesson I learned the hard way by putting five gallons of Kerosene in our D2 Catterpillar, the Kero was too dry, according to Beckwith Catterpillar in Pittsburg, Pa, and it jerked a connecting rod in two, a $2500 dollar repair in 1962.

< Message edited by hobbsy -- 2/26/2004 10:37:26 AM >

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 3:46:56 PM   
AndyW


 

Posts: 1890
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Hobbsy,

So auto diesel has more lubricity. Would that not be a good thing? Would that not allow us to run lower oil? Like 20% instead of 25 to 33%?

I can see that I'm going to be running a lot of stinky engines this year.

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 5:04:46 PM   
wrongwaywayne



Posts: 256
Joined: 12/22/2003
From: Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		LouW you are not entirely right. They are not all the same. Kerosene and Jet Fuel are similar, but are lighter than diesel and heating oil. Heating oil and diesel are essentially the same, however diesel fuel does have a lower sulphur content. , ie dryer!! During the winter months, diesel fuel is sometimes cut or diluted with kerosene to improve its winter performance.

For me its gotta be light wieght and high power. I was thinking of converting a Saito 180 to diesel a while ago. As I recall there was a power loss involved.

Have you had a look at Morriss Hobbies MVVS gas engines. They are light weight and powerfull, fuel is cheap and runs clean.

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 6:00:04 PM   
LouW



Posts: 798
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Moreland, GA, USA
Status: offline 		There are grades of diesel fuel and you are right in that #2 diesel fuel for heavy equipment is not the same as kerosene. However many air carriers use the waste jet fuel (from draining sumps) in ramp vehicles interchangeably with #1 diesel fuel (auto diesel) with no damage. It is the same stuff.

(in reply to Hobbsy)
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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 8:06:43 PM   
Motorboy



Posts: 1629
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Bergen, NORWAY
Status: offline 		Diesel are heavier than kerosene, but it has better lubricating than kerosene. Heavy diesel oil for ship to example has more sulfur than light diesel (Auto diesel fuel).

In Norway we use winter diesel has mostly kerosene added in diesel to improve starting in cold weather. In russia they adding 10-15 % gas (petrol/benzine) in diesel in winter, some people are running dieselengine and use only kerosene with 10% 2 stroke oil added to lubricate dieselpump and parts in injector in winter.

Auto diesel fuel (both summer/winter) can not damage modelengines.
In our model dieselengines running without problem when we use auto diesel, kerosene, lamp oil, smokeless lampoil, jet A1. Very important fuel has 20-33% oil added to lubricate moving parts.

quote:

Next question is oil content. The 1/3rd formula means 33% oil. I've always wondered why so much oil?


In early days we had much oil cause tight parts when running in new diesel engine and to improve sealing between piston/sleeve in case bad compresion and cool down engine. 33% make overlubricated modelengine and more waste oil. I has tried 20% oil both at dieselconverted engines and original diesel engines without sign to wear out parts.
Before all peoples thinked the modeldiesel engine must be tight and have very good seal between piston and sleeve and has talked pistonring was impossible in miniature diesel engines. Now we know the engine run well with piston ring without problem (piston ring more leak than lapped piston/sleeve). 20 % oil are enough to lubricate engine instead waste oil and less dirty airplane.
In my 4 stroke engine are 20% enough because engine are running between 8000-9000 rpm and not running hot. I can see oilfog come from breather nipple.

Jens Eirik

(in reply to LouW)
       Post #: 8

RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/26/2004 10:26:08 PM   
Luftman



Posts: 176
Joined: 8/25/2003
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		#2 diesel is what is used on road in north america, by cars and 18 wheelers alike, #1 is what is used in furnaces and other apps.

(in reply to Motorboy)
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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/27/2004 12:50:31 AM   
AMB


 

Posts: 3791
Joined: 6/10/2003
From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Lou auto and truck diesel is the same #2 fuel oil Kero and the JP (jet)
fuels are #1 oil > right on for the jet stuff it is highly purified kero with
the additives you mentionedI friend of mine picked up a gallon of JP3 or
4 when fueling a lear jet any remaining fuel in the hose after filling the plane is discarded in case of contamination.
years ago during the fuel crunch of to 70s both gas and diesel wre short
could get kero added a qt of 30 wt oil to 5 gallons kero to protect the
injection pump of the 220 diesel mercedes milage dropped about 20%
on kero

< Message edited by dieseldan -- 2/27/2004 12:54:41 AM >

(in reply to LouW)
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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/27/2004 1:42:31 AM   
LouW



Posts: 798
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Moreland, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Jet A and JP3 are kerosene, however JP4 is a high fraction fuel more similar to naptha. For years JP4 was used by the military, but I believe they have standardized on kerosene for safety reasons. They both work fine in turbines but I don't think JP4 would be to good for model diesels.

(in reply to AMB)
       Post #: 11

RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/28/2004 3:20:45 AM   
Tim Wiltse-RCU



Posts: 2463
Joined: 5/2/2003
From: Concord, NC,
Status: offline 		OK so what is the bottom line here? Can you use Auto diesel in a model engine without hurting anything???


Later,
Tim

(in reply to LouW)
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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/28/2004 6:02:09 AM   
Motorboy



Posts: 1629
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Bergen, NORWAY
Status: offline 		I wrote:

quote:

Auto diesel fuel (both summer/winter) can not damage modelengines.


The auto diesel can use in model diesel engines without hurt... It has better lubricate properties.

Jens Eirik

(in reply to Tim Wiltse-RCU)
       Post #: 13

RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/28/2004 6:35:33 AM   
wrongwaywayne



Posts: 256
Joined: 12/22/2003
From: Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		I wouldnt use the auto diesel necessarily. Its quite low in sulphur and getting lower. It lacks the lubricating qualities it had even a few years ago. Sulphur is a lubircant of sorts. Some of the older fuel injected engines require an oil additive with the new low sulphur fuel. Many people found this out the hard way with injector pump failures.

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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/29/2004 11:55:57 AM   
DarZeelon



Posts: 6928
Joined: 4/9/2003
From: Rosh-Ha'Ayin, ISRAEL
Status: offline 		Lou,

Diesel fuel is nothing like kerosene, or jet fuel.

All are petroleum distilates, as is gasoline.
But just take a whiff of either fuel. You cannot possibly not notice the difference.

Kerosene and jet fuel smell identical and make the same scent when they burn.
Diesel fuel is harder to ignite and has a very different smell.

It contains a different set of hydrocarbons.
Diesel fuel (automotive) has more energy than kerosene, or gasoline.

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(in reply to LouW)
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RE: auto diesel versus kerosene versus jet fuel - 2/29/2004 12:39:46 PM   
Motorboy