NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Aerodynamics >> NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey
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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/9/2002 9:23:06 PM   
Noah-Moore


 

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I am in the process of scratch-building a V-22 Osprey. If your not familiar with the Osprey it is a so-called "tiltrotor" aircraft in which the turboprop engines are in a vertical postion for takeoff and landing, but then tilt forward in flight to become a normal aircraft. What kind of motors/gearbox's/batteries combination would be suitable for a model like this? I'm thinking of a model with a wingspan of about 4 feet and wieght of not more than 5 pounds. Keep in mind that the motors must be powerful enough to swing a 3-bladed 16-8 or 16-10 Master airscrew propeller and do it fast enough to lift the model of the ground. I know the props are big, but they're in scale with the real plane. PLEASE any advice welcome!!

Thanks!

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Osprey - 6/9/2002 10:17:24 PM   
driegel



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Nothing is impossible, but there are some difficulties to overcome. Suitable power plants are the first. Static thrust would have to exceed aircraft weight by a considerable margin for a vertical takeoff. Next on the list is the rotation mechanism for the engines. How much will they weigh? Another concern is control during hover. Even if the CG is centered on the vertical thrust lines of the engines, how would you provide roll control, use throttle differential? Yaw around the vertical axis is another concern. Eddie Weeks had some posts on here regarding his Rig, a VTOL turbine plane. Quite a while back I had seen some site with a guy building an Osprey, can't recall who it was. Lot of engineering problems to solve, but it would make for a VERY impressive model.

Don

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/10/2002 2:47:18 AM   
gubbs3



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I'm thinking electric would be the way to go. With engines, it would be hard to swing a large prop and hard to get them at exactly the same speed. With some large electric motors and 6:1 gearboxs, you would be able to swing some pretty heavy wood.

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/10/2002 9:57:17 AM   
Noah-Moore


 

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Any idea's on what motors?

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/10/2002 5:16:41 PM   
Cactus.



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i was just about to say go brushless, you dont want a dead engine on this, i saw a good, and fairly cheap motor on a fun fly the other week, i guess it should now be at [url]www.westonuk.co.uk[/url]
it swung a 12x3.75 prop nice
my other idea would be a central motor and drive system, but you want to be low in pitch, its a hoverer, not a speed ship.
i did think about this as an autogyro a while back.
roll control, motor speed
yaw, motor pitch,
pitch, combined motor pitch. tho moves forwards and backwards more than pitch.

that brushless motor i saw was on a standard Cougar meant for a 36, and it pulled vert, hung on 1/2 throttle, that was using 8 3000 Mah cells.
pic of motor at rcflyers site ( pilots6 )

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 12:29:39 AM   
Noah-Moore


 

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Here is a quick drawing on what i'm thinking. PLEASE, any comments welcome!

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< Message edited by Noah-Moore -- Jun 10 2002 7:41PM >

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 1:43:52 AM   
Cactus.



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Personaly i'd mount two mothers of servos in the wing tips, then mount the motor nacells to the output horns.
this would give you indipendant control of the blade angle to give all the yaw control you'll ever need, + forwards and backwards movement, sideways ( if you wanted to be flash ) would come from diffrential throttle settings.
from what i can tell of your system, not only is it complicated, but it dosnt give you the same degree of control.
you'll be wanting over 100 degrees of pitch movement.
*POSSIBLE* other idea for better pitch control in hover, have a small 400 motor within the fus and a fan/tube system, blow air from small holes at the nose and tail, motor turns one way, it blows nose, pitch up, turns other way, blows at tail, pitch down

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 2:52:31 AM   
MinnFlyer



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Noah...

I used to be a machinist for the government and considered this project for many years. I had lots of high-tech machinery to make any parts I needed, but still I scrapped the project due to the many problems involved. Some of my conclusions were:

Use a single engine mounted in the fuse: this way there's no chance of a one sided flame-out.
Next: use two, helicopter rotors. let's face it, you have to be able to hover this thing as the rotors are too big for the plane to land in a rotor forward configuration. And if you're going to hover, there's no way to balance your plane without a rotor head. If you don't believe it, consider this: You have two propellers that lift the aircraft off the ground to a height of , let's say 3 ft. And by some miraculous luck, it is balanced perfectly fore and aft so it doesn't tilt. Now, you want to transition to forward flight, so you start to rotate the nacelles forward, but there's a problem... remember those two spinning propellers? There's another scientific term for them... GYROs. That's right! Those propellers are acting like two gigantic gyros, and they don't WANT to be rotated! But! Remember that miraculous balance? That means there's no problem tilting the fuselage, so... when you try to rotate the engines forward, what will actually happen is that you will tilt the fuselage nose-up.

Let's go back to that perfect hover, now a little breeze blows and you start being blown backwards, what do you do? Rotate the nacelles forward? As you now know, that will only tilt the nose up exposing more of the fuselage to the wind, and before you can say "There goes all my money" the plane is in little pieces on the runway.

No, my friend, under NO circumstances will two propellers work. You MUST have two rotor heads.

Next: If you don't already have one, be prepared to shell out big bucks for a very sophisticated radio. Think about it... In hover mode, the collective (changing pitch on the rotors for more [or less] lift) would be controlled by the throttle (to go higher) and mixed with the aileron (for lateral balance) and the elevator servos will actuate the forward and aft rotor control. But once you transition to forward flight, the actual ailerons on the wing must now be controlled by your aileron stick, and your elevator stick must now control the elevators and not the rotors.

As I said before, this was a pet project of mine for many years, and the more I thought about it, the more bugs I encountered.

I'm not saying that modeling one of these babies is impossible, but don't forget... The military scratched this project because there were too many problems with making this thing fly. Don't think you're going to stick two engines on an airplane wing and show them up!

_____________________________

Mike B.
AMA# 42400 www.gettingairborne.com

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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We've done it! - 6/11/2002 4:09:09 AM   
Cadet



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From: Malahat, BC, CANADA
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The Canadian military had a very successful tilt rotor/wing aircraft that was nearly operational. I believe it was the Canadair CL-84 Dynavert. Anyway the whole wing tilted which made it much less mechanically complicated, and the ailerons were still effective in hover. That might be a better scale subject to consider, that and very few people will know what it is.
Cheers,
Grant

P.S. Found a few good sites using google
http://www.aviation.nmstc.ca/Eng/Collection/sd024e.htm
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/canadair_dynavert-r.html

< Message edited by Cadet -- Jun 10 2002 11:25PM >


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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 3:44:08 PM   
Cactus.



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there was a design here in the UK, a high wing plane with two engines on either side of the fuz, the rotated upwards to slow the plane, not to hover it. it worked very well. if i ever find the article ( dont hold your breath ) i'll scan and post.
i think for radio you'll want that Multiplex set with its millions of mixes and i think my ducted fan idea in the fuz linked to a pitch gyro should work nice to combat the pitching caused by the rotors.

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PS... - 6/11/2002 6:08:38 PM   
MinnFlyer



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Something else you would have to consider is what you're going to rotate the nacelles with. A servo won't do, as the nacelles need to be rotated VERY slowly. As you can see, I could go on and on. There are MANY MANY complicated things that must be worked out on a project like this.

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Mike B.
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"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 6:56:34 PM   
Cactus.



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Servos can be slowed to any speed you want, i thought of that before i posted it.
if your real lucky the tranny might be able to do this for the transission only, leaving responce for yaw and directional movement fast and you with more control. kinda like having super quick servos on the tail controls for hovering funflys.
personal thought...... i would rather have the nacells able to move quick, as i didnt spend millions using a super PC to work all this out. and if i get in trouble i want instant go, not watch it crash and the nacells still slowely moving back up or down.
you can worry about scale looks after you got it working.
i would also build a VERY simple prototype just to get all the systems working before commiting to a scale plane.
to do the hovering stuff, i wouldnt even bother with wings

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My half dead website www.philsrcworld.fsnet.co.uk new site coming soon.
Redruth & District model flying club www.rcflye

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NEED HELP!!! Scratch-building a V-22 Osprey - 6/11/2002 10:46:33 PM   
MinnFlyer



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by phillybaby
i would rather have the nacells able to move quick, as i didnt spend millions using a super PC to work all this out. and if i get in trouble i want instant go, [/QUOTE]

You guys are still missing the boat here. If you rotate the nacelles quickly, all you are going to do is rotate the fuselage up-wards. What do you think is going to hold the fuselage in a lateral position?

This machine is essentially a helicopter. To move a helicopter forward do they "tilt" the rotor head? NO! That's why it is a "rotor head" and not a "giant propeller".

To transition from hover to horizontal flight, you give forward pressure on the stick. The rotor blades now produce more lift in the rear, which tilts the entire aircraft forward. Now, the aircraft starts to gain speed which means (horizontal) airflow over the control surfaces. BUT, remember the fact that the aircraft is tilted forward? That means that it is facing slightly nose-down. In a helicopter, this is not much of a problem, but on an Osprey, which has wings and a tail surface, the plane wants to fly to-wards the ground. So, you need to feed in some up elevator, but guess what? Until transition is complete, the elevator stick is also controlling the rotor head! And up elevator is the same as giving back pressure on the rotor head which is going to stop your forward progress.

Are you starting to see how difficult this is?

You would need a VERY slow rotation of the nacelles, so that you can flip a switch and wiggle your sticks like crazy and pray while you try to balance the thing as the nacells are rotating to the forward position. There's no way you are going to control it, AND manually rotate the nacelles at the same time.

I strongly agree with PhillyBaby when he says, " I would also build a VERY simple prototype just to get all the systems working before committing to a scale plane. To do the hovering stuff, i wouldn't even bother with wings"

But put the wings on it... it adds a whole new dimension to the problem.

_____________________________

Mike B.
AMA# 42400 www.gettingairborne.com

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." - Groucho Marx

(in reply to Noah-Moore)