RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (Full Version)

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ericheller -> RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 1:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: speeddemon32

not exactly.... when you said the turbo diesel truck does not spin enough RPM's to spool up a turbo...

you have to remember that the big truck has a piston the size of a 5 gallon bucket. (well not really but you get my point) but a car engine has a piston the size of a a coke can. (also not exactly, but you get my point)

Turbos work off of exhaust pressure, the coke can may spin faster, then the 5 gallon bucket can still push just as much if not more air trough the turbo.

how did this subject get on turbos, instead of bore and stroke like nitro had first asked about? [:D]

anyways, just thought i would throw that one in.

um, may i direct your attention to nitroaddicts post, the engine he is talking about, the disel one is smaller. at what was it? 1800rpm isnt alot, and there isnt enough displacement to shove much exaust out. in a gas car of the same displacement at 1800 rpms you wouldnt get much boost out of the turbo, maybe 1 or 2 pounds. these 2 engines are not very comparable though because of the fact that desils dont put out as much rpms, and most have turbos.




ericheller -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 1:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KillerWabbit

Check this link out. This is the "most powerful diesel engine in the world."

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Here's a quick pic...
[image]http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/rta96c_crank.jpg[/image]

dang dude, what if someone got stuck in the cobustion chamber? they would be crushed. i wanna see it run.




Bush Wacker -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 1:38 AM)

quote:

Check this link out. This is the "most powerful diesel engine in the world."

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Here's a quick pic...

Featured in Four Wheeler. That is like a force that cant be stopped. [:D]




ericheller -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 3:19 AM)

Btw, what is that engine for? a submarine?




speeddemon32 -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 3:41 AM)

the web site said it was for a crate ship.... (tanker, or crate ship) the ships are getting larger as time goes on, so the engines need to get larger.




Frost_ -> RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 3:44 AM)

Eric, your concern over the volume of air at 1800 RPMs is not neccessary. The pitch of the blades in the turbos engineered for the diesel take this into account. That is why if you adapt one to use with gasoline you have to seriously underdrive it from its stock config. Not to mention that detonation (pre-ignition) will come MUCH faster in a gasoline that is already much less tolerant of such. The crank in question is for a tanker or barge, I can't remember which.




Billyman -> RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 3:50 AM)

I’ve chosen so stay out of this thread (for the most part) since it steered heavily off course. I’ve read speculation after speculation and some pretty good facts, some stuff was way out in left field.

Guver—you gave a lot of facts but not all. It does appear that some of your information is solely what you believe to be fact. No problem with that, the only suggestion I would give you is open yourself to suggestion from others who may actually know. Over all really nice showing of wits. :)

Speeddemon—I like your style. Good stuff. :)

Frost—Two thumbs up.

KillerWabbit—Two of the thumbs and a toe.

Ericcheller—You seem to have gotten on first base, went to steal second and started running to-and-fro as the second and first basemen tossed the ball back and forth. Maybe had you not been so far off base? ;)

Points to ponder for us all:

It’s always best to ask questions about something we know little to nothing about as oppose to arguing what we think. If you give what is known to you as a cold hard fact and it is debunked, just go "oh" and move on. :D


quote:

ORIGINAL: KillerWabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nitroaddict

Well - Let's get back to my original question for a moment. What have we decided? In theory, will the .26 rc engine develop more torque at high rpm or ow rpm than a .21? Will it develop less torque? How about HP? Wow - Do I know how to get a good thread started? LMAO


If the 26 and 21 have identical strokes and the only difference between the two is bore, the 26 won't lose torque, but it will gain a little torque from the larger displacement, but, I think you'll mostly get hp from a larger bore.

Again, it is a hard question to answer because there are other things involved like the port design and all that stuff. But, this is what I believe as a general rule based on my experience in building and racing Honda engines. Everyone has different experiences.

If you just want solid fact without anyone's opinion on this type of thing, I think that'll be hard to find.


Firstly, I’m so glad Nitrodude attempted to get this thread back on track.

Secondly, KillerWabbits response to that was (and still is) my way of thinking from the start. That is also the reason I went to my Dyno program for testing. That program doesn’t prove a farting thing by no means, however those findings were interesting to me none-the-less.




Billyman -> RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 3:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frost_

Eric, your concern over the volume of air at 1800 RPMs is not neccessary. The pitch of the blades in the turbos engineered for the diesel take this into account. That is why if you adapt one to use with gasoline you have to seriously underdrive it from its stock config. Not to mention that detonation (pre-ignition) will come MUCH faster in a gasoline that is already much less tolerant of such.


Have you any idea how popular it is to take turbo’s from 6.5 GM diesels and 7.3 Fords to adapt to our street cars?




Frost_ -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 4:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KillerWabbit

Check this link out. This is the "most powerful diesel engine in the world."

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Here's a quick pic...
[image]http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/rta96c_crank.jpg[/image]


DAMN, I just realized... that better be off of US soil because those openings around the rod journals are a MAD OSHA VIOLATION in which each opening is a seperate offense. Ther must be rails around each until the point of the ladder. EVERYONE that climbs down there to work must have confined-spaces training also. This picture would virtually ensure a surprise visit TOMORROW to my plant if it was us and the pic made it's way back to OSHA...




Nitroaddict -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 7:08 AM)

Eric - All US submarines are nuclear powered. We do have deisel engines in them too, they are about 20,000 cc's. But they do not power the ships propulsion system, on supply power the the electrical system.




DCLXVI -> RE: RE: RE: A curious question about engine displacement (3/10/2004 4:30 PM)

Frost, IIRC that is a japanees factory...




esaggese -> RE: A curious question about engine displacement (5/25/2005 3:44 AM)

The answer to the Diesel Torque question is not that complex.
A diesel engine of the same displacement as a gas engine, with no additional boost (turbo) will not produce significantly more torque than a gas engine and it will produce MUCH less horsepower since the combustion is much slower and the engine is limited to lower RPMs.
The trick is that diesel engines are much more enegetically efficient, so you can build a larger diesel engine and have the same fuel economy as a gas engine. Thus, if you compared two engines of the same capacity, the gas engine will win in HP and torque, but if you compare two engines of the same fuel consumption (even disregarding the lower diesel fuel price), which is more relevant for anything but racing, you will have a diesel engine that´s larger and has much more torque, and probably close to the same horsepower as the gas engine.
Add to that a turbo that´s commonly attached to the diesels, and you have an engine that has plenty of torque and a decent HP.
Modern diesel engines are not very noisy, burn clean, fail very little, last forever and can compete with gas engines in HP, while consuming much less fuel.
While diesel has received lots of investment to try to make them more efficient, that´s nowhere near what the investment in research of gas engines has been. Car makers are not fools, and if they sell more gas cars than diesel cars, that´s where they'll put the money.
Finally, about the old question, what´s more important, power or HP, the answer is none. What really matters is the integral over time of the torque function. That´s close to the area below the torque curve, over the range of RPMs it will be used (obtaining the curve or torque over time is difficult and has too many variables that affect it, but the torqu curve over RPM is a good enpough approximation).
But if you have to use the HP or torque single value as a factor to decide which engine will accelerate a car in less time, the torque value will give you a more valid result. Thus, for anything other than top speed, the torque value is more important.




guver -> RE: A curious question about engine displacement (5/25/2005 5:26 AM)

I forgot about this thread, I would agree with most of your first statements, but it would be fair to add a turbo to the gas job too, right?

I am thinking the opposite , however for your last two sentences. Tork is meaningless (unless a rpm is specified) and horsepower is what will accelerate faster and produce more top speed. If a rpm is specified then tork and power go up together. Tork is merely a twisting force and you or I can have millions of ft-pounds of tork, but our horsepower is limited by our srenghth.




puffer -> RE: A curious question about engine displacement (5/25/2005 8:02 AM)

I'd like to add that "There's no replacement for displacement"




guver -> RE: A curious question about engine displacement (5/25/2005 8:16 AM)

Just rpm




guver -> RE: A curious question about engine displacement (5/25/2005 8:18 AM)

horspower is a function of rpm and tork so that increasing displacement or rpm will give a increase in power.

Best to do them both..... much more power (producing more tork at a higher rpm)




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