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Cell Phones ? - 6/17/2002 4:55 PM   
jbflier



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From: Concord Twp, OH, USA
Status: offline 		I appologise if this is a repeat question, but it's become a topic/issue at our field. There has been a proposal to ban cell phones from the pitt area, because of potential interference problems from the phones. Some claim they actually de-program computer Tx's as well as react with Rx's. I have read in some magazine articles of these signals coming into the 72MZ band by gurus like Pete Walters etc, but you don't hear much on it. Any thoughts and comments by others? Do big events like Top Gun allow cell phones in the pitts? Thanks in advance........John

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Cell Phones ? - 6/17/2002 6:48 PM   
Mayur



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Status: offline 		Nice question John,
Actually I was thinking of putting the same question on forum! Thanks!
waiting for answers

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Cell Phones ? - 6/17/2002 8:04 PM   
MMallory


 

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Status: offline 		John,

I think if there is even a remote possibility of impact to our radios they should be banned from the pits. It can't hurt! Besides, who can hear on the phone with an engine running next to you?

Mark M.

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Cell Phones ? - 6/17/2002 8:50 PM   
amcross



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Status: offline 		http://www.futabarc.com/faq/product-faq.html#q278

Is there any risk to using cellular phones in close proximity with my radio?
There are two separate parts to this question -- frequency transmission interference vs. computer processor interference.

FREQUENCY: While most fields do not recommend the use of cell phones for liability reasons, there should never be a frequency problem between cell phones and radio systems. The FCC makes sure that neither cell phones, nor R/C frequencies are close enough in range to interfere with each other and they enforce this policy actively. We have many fliers in high cell phone use areas, who have never encountered frequency problems related to cell phones, but once again, with the volume of cell phones today, and for safety sake, it is best not to fly during a large amount of cell phone use in the area of the flying field.

PROCESSOR: There have been a few reported cases of modelers seeming to encounter strange programming issues with their computer radios when used in the vicinity of an operating cell phone. We have never seen this nor can we replicate it; however, when it comes to safety we always recommend the modeler err on the side of caution and avoid use of your radio equipment in close proximity with a cellular phone which is turned on.

It is always best to take all possible precautions to avoid a situation that could potentially harm someone. Therefore, we recommend limiting the proximity of powered-on cellular phones to at least 1000 feet from any radio in operation.


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Mrs AnnMarie Cross
Owner, Cross Winds Stables and Equine Rescue, Inc.
an Illinois 501c3 nonprofit charity corporation

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cell phones and R/C - 6/17/2002 9:44 PM   
s3nfo


 

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Status: offline 		If you have members using cell phones in the pits, then your within range of at least one cell phone tower. If your within range of a cell phone tower you have cell phone frequency radiating in the pits whether or not members are using their cell phones.

Our flying field is on base at a Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS Miramar) and we are required by the base Commanding Officer to have a cell phone on at all times when people are flying so they can get in touch with us should there be a full scale aircraft emergency and we have never had a problem or experienced a glitch or Tx reprogramming due to cell phones. I personally set up right next to where the club cell phone is located and have a cell phone of my own that I use occassionally at the field. I'm flying an Airtronics Vision and Quasar and JR 10SX and have never had a computer radio problem due to cell phones.

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L1324, HoF, LM, CD, Turbine sign-off CD, LMAI

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Cell Phones ? - 6/17/2002 11:27 PM   
amcross



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Status: offline 		Jerry,
Agreed, 99.9999% of the users who carry phones around their radios have never seen a problem. Unfortunately, however, we've heard of enough of them, and seen one or two actual cases in our hands, such that we feel it is best to make the recommendations above -- keep the proximity to a minimum and, as always, be sure everything is operating properly prior to takeoff.


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Mrs AnnMarie Cross
Owner, Cross Winds Stables and Equine Rescue, Inc.
an Illinois 501c3 nonprofit charity corporation

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Tape Recorder - 6/17/2002 11:52 PM   
bob_nj



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Status: offline 		As an aside, I ride in my vehicle with a portable tape recorder going alot of the time. When my cell phone is nearby I can tell when it's going to ring 3-5 seconds before it actually does. At that time it drives the recorder crazy for a few seconds and then rings. It goes through a similar exercise when it does some sort of signal check every couple of minutes. I guess my point is, it does do something to electronics. The extent or damage caused is hard to determine based on the particular device.

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Cell Phones ? - 6/18/2002 12:12 AM   
lnorris


 

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Status: offline 		Mrs. Cross, the cases you've seen, how long ago was it? I can see older cell phone (analog 800Mhz) causing problems but 2G digital phones operate at 900/1900 Mhz and have MUCH lower output wattage.

I know my phone (Sprint CDMA 1900 Mhz) doesn't cause problems as I've even had a phone call when I was flying without a hitch. (btw, before everyone jumps all over me we were expecting a baby and I was "on call").

I'm betting that most "cell phone" glitches are reported from crashed people who are looking for excuses.

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Cell Phones ? - 6/18/2002 12:42 AM   
amcross



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Status: offline 		Bob,
That's exactly the timing most customers indicate when the systems go "out of wack".


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Mrs AnnMarie Cross
Owner, Cross Winds Stables and Equine Rescue, Inc.
an Illinois 501c3 nonprofit charity corporation

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Interesting Stuff - 6/18/2002 12:50 AM   
bob_nj



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Status: offline 		I make a conscious effort to keep my phone away from anything important while at the field. There are enough gremlins running around without inviting more

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seen it - 6/18/2002 2:08 AM   
Johng



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Status: offline 		If I have my cell phone in the car, and it rings, I too can hear it on the stereo a few seconds before. If I place it next to my desktop monitor, it will also interfere with the display.

I have been at the club, walking the flightline and talking on my phone, Nokia, AT&T Wireless, TDMA. As I walked past a full-house pattern plane, the servos started buzzing. They weren't jittering, just buzzing, like they were bound-up. Myself and the airplane owner noticed it. I had my friend hang up and call me back. THe buzz went away and returned with the phone call. Effects were only when I was within about 10 feet of the plane.

Does that mean it was unsafe to fly in that particular case? No, probably not. However, if servos in one plane can be excited to buzz, then it is just as likely that worse effects could be seen on another plane, or even interference with the transmitter. Just something to be aware of. Not likely, but possible.

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Cell Phones - 6/18/2002 6:25 AM   
RCPilot100



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Status: offline 		I always have my cell phone with me. When flying I leave it in my flight box. I and my good flying buddy have been doing this for 10+ years and have never had a computer radio 'reprogrammed' or ever detected any type of radio interference. All that has been presented is anecdotal eveidence - at my real job in an Engineering environment, anecdotal doesn't cut it. AMA is our watchdog for this type of stuff, I would expect they already have some information concering this - if not I would expect them to be working on it. How about it AMA - what are the facts?

Dan

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CellPhone blues and R/C - 6/18/2002 6:43 AM   
sparky4lawndart


 

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Status: offline 		I may be considered a newbie by most in R/C (off and on for 10 years) but I'm a GOD when it comes to wireless electronics...

My first job out of college was as a "cell switch engineer"... you know those guys driving all over the place in thos FCC bread-trucks...

Cell phones operate at a considerably different frequency than do R/C products.... BUT... mobile telephones operate at approx 1 watt of transmitted power. There are 7 power levels your little phone will go thru negotiating with a cell site (depending on the distance between you and the cell site). The max power out-put of you portable is about .6 watts. Compared to a car phone w/ transciever and 3dB antenna of 3 watts.

the interference you here on your car radio is the result of the phone negotiating on a control channel with the cell sight and setting up the voice channel for VOX transmit and recieve.

These negotiations can have adverse affects on the computer radios as there are not allowed to be shielded against them (per FCC rules and regs)...

Cool... huh!

In other words. If you fall victim to cell phone interference, the Federal government says "nener nener"... I say, ban the cell phones at the field

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Re: CellPhone blues and R/C - 6/18/2002 9:04 AM   
brc007



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by sparky4lawndart
the interference you here on your car radio is the result of the phone negotiating on a control channel with the cell sight and setting up the voice channel for VOX transmit and recieve.

These negotiations can have adverse affects on the computer radios as there are not allowed to be shielded against them (per FCC rules and regs)...
[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that our computer radios are not allowed to be shielded against cellphone comunication per FCC rules? If so why? Also do you know what section of the FCC rules state this?

Thanks,
Brian Christie
KD7DMO

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Cell Phones ? - 6/18/2002 9:16 AM   
JohnVH



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Status: offline 		I have been flying with a cell phone on my hip turned on for a few years now, all my TX's are JR and I have never had a hit. What brand is the most hits on? Maybe its brand specific????

Pretty odd.

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Re: Re: CellPhone blues and R/C - 6/18/2002 9:19 AM   
GelCell



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by brc007

Are you saying that our computer radios are not allowed to be shielded against cellphone comunication per FCC rules? If so why? Also do you know what section of the FCC rules state this?

Thanks,
Brian Christie
KD7DMO [/QUOTE]

hes referring to part 15 of FCC rules.

"operation is subject to the following two conditions: 1) this device may not cause harmful interference and 2) This device must accept any interference that may be recieved, including inteference that may cause undesired operation."

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/47cfr15_01.html

the FCC requires that any device that is subject to an FCC ID must display that message. basically that covers all electronics in the US that fall under the umbrella of intentional or unintentional EM radiators that are subject to use without an individual license.

-Joe-

< Message edited by GelCell -- Jun 18 2002 1:25AM >

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Cell Phones ? - 6/18/2002 10:16 AM   
AJF--2


 

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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]"... I say, ban the cell phones at the field[/QUOTE] --Do this and you ban me--I am one of those poor stiffs who must be available 24/7/365 with a cell phone AND pager-It is a pain but it supports this hobby.

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EF? - 6/18/2002 10:42 AM   
lnorris


 

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Status: offline 		Ok, fact is modern cellular gear has a VERY difference frequency and signal so I have a hard time thinking that the cell phone signal is causing interference. Heck, pagers operate ON our frequencies and you almost can't get away from them but yet we seem to be ok.

So what could be the culprit? How about stray EF. All electronics produce stray electromagetic fields (at more or less random frequencies) as a by-product. I also know that unshielded and, in general, cheap electronics pick up on this more and sometimes can be an indicator of failing chips. (that wasn't meant to be a put down to any brand or anyone, just an observation from doing circuit level repair and involvment with Tempest projects).

Problem here would be that you couldn't stop with banning cell phones. You have to include ALL electronics of any wattage.

So what do you all think?

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Cell phones and Radios - 6/18/2002 12:39 PM   
sirrom


 

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Status: offline 		My club went through this very same debate about a year ago and was ready to ban cell phones at the field. Unfortunately, I am one of those that also has to be available 24/7. Luckily for me my girlfriend works at a cell phone/tower maintenance facility so I spoke with alot of the techs there about the situation. After many conversations and many in house and at the field tests we came to the conclusion that cell phones do not cause interference to our radios. To prove this point I took my motorola I1000 cell phone with hands free headset and clipped it to my waist, fired up my plane, started flying and had someone call me. Although the conversation was brief (4-5 minutes) I never experienced one glitch from my radio.

Also, it was mentioned that some radio programming were being affected by cell phones. Is it not true that the memory in the Futaba and JR (high end radios) are non-volatile chips that require battery backup for storage? Does anyone think that this type of storage system is used only in our radios? NO, it is very widely used in the world to day for many modern appliances. How do you think the CMOS in computers is stored. Same type of memory, but you don't hear of computers being wiped out by cell phones. I think alot of people hear of this problem and freak out and start imposing stupid rule without actually checking into it and doing some tests.


patrick.

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Cell Phones ? - 6/18/2002 2:00 PM   
RcNorth


 

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Status: offline 		I've flown with a cell phone on my waist for several years. I've recently started leaving the phone in the flight box, and simply check to see if anyone called once I've landed.

This is more because I'm not going to answer it if I'm flying anyway, so why bother with the extra noise.

I would agree with sirrom that too many people start freaking out, without checking into the problem.

Dean

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Ban the Damn Cell Phones! - 6/18/2002 2:34 PM   
D_Dawg



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Status: offline 		I say why bother taking the chance ... the world was a better place without those damn things and everyone managed to survive and get business done without a major hassle ...

You cant talk and fly anyway ... so why even take a chance of bringing that possiblity into play?

if you are so important that you cant live without the cellphone permantly attached to your hip or surgically attached to your ear ... Maybe you shouldn't be flying in the first place!

maybe the only good time for a cell phone is if by chance there is an accident at your feild and someone gets injured ... most feilds are located out in the boonies ... and then it can be justified ... but if by some chance the cell phone is in use when that quarter scale goes haywire ... and crashes into the pits or someone else ...

Who is to say if that cell phone did or didn't cause the problem?

Radio signals are strange and freak interferance can happen ... even though these cell phones and transmitters are tuned to a very narrow bandwidth ... they are both subject to shock and therefore subject to being knocked out of tolereances ...

and I know I don't get my transmitter checked aftter every time I bang it or have it fall over ... nor do I get it inspected every month ... the same can be said for that cell phone ...

So Again ... I say why chance it ... limit cell phone usage when the flying is done ... or if there is planes in the air ... leave them off!

No phonecall is worth the possiblity of taking out someones plane.

and if it is ... leave the feild! you shouldn't be flying!

AND YES ... I AM ANTI CELL PHONE ... I have seen to many fools with them and most are inconciderate ... Specially when they get behind the wheel of a car and try to drive!

so says this Anti-cellphone maniac ... now excuse me while I answer my phone ... my pocket is vibrating!




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Not only cell phones - 6/19/2002 12:34 AM   
sirrom


 

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Status: offline 		After I did my post last night I went through and dug up the paper work we presented to our club safety committee regarding cell phones. One point that we had to point out is that the land our field is on is owned by the county and our local club field is leased from the county and we have a 100' tower less than a 1000 yards away that is owned by the county that is there to support the radio system for the fire/police agencies in our area. Now after some investigation we found this tower doubles as a cell tower (rented space). Now even though a cell phone may not be operating at the field you will still pick up the transmissions from the tower. Not only from the cell but from the county system as well.

After hearing that the club pretty much abandoned the idea of banning cell phones, but stated that cell phones should not be on the flight line. This I can agree with because a ringing cell phone can be an unwanted distraction.

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Cell Phones ? - 6/19/2002 1:09 AM   
amcross



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Status: offline 		As I understand it, the difference is significant -- the cell phone itself, in close proximity to the computer processor of the radio -- is sending out information to the cell tower to say "here I am, go ahead and put me through". The frequency of that information is such that it has the potential to get into the processor and scramble data.


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Mrs AnnMarie Cross
Owner, Cross Winds Stables and Equine Rescue, Inc.
an Illinois 501c3 nonprofit charity corporation

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Cell Phones ? - 6/19/2002 1:46 AM   
lnorris


 

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Status: offline 		I did some looking around for some data on someone who had actually done some testing (so we could ditch all the ancedotal data). I remembered hospital restrictions on cell phone usage so I took that route and found this;

http://www.devicelink.com/mem/archive/01/09/010.html

Basically their conclusion was a cell phone didn't cause interference at distance (1+ meters). Two way radios where much worse btw.. And I bet if they tested our transmitters we wouldn't be allowed to fly within 3 miles of a hospital!..

Makes ya wonder about pilots with pace-makers doesn't it?

So basically don't put a cell phone right next to your transmitter. For that matter don't put two transmitters right next to each other...

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Cell Phones ? - 6/19/2002 2:08 AM   
Spicoli


 

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Status: offline 		I had a transmitter reverse a servo on me. From driving for an hour with the cell phone and transmitter on the front seat together.If you turn your cell phone on and set it to close to the transmitter it can jumble a computer radio's settings.Lucky I noticed before flying.
Lesson learned.Now I keep my cell phone away from my radio

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