RE: Sirius VS Hobbico  
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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> Batteries & Chargers >> RE: Sirius VS Hobbico
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RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/17/2004 4:57:43 AM   
GJr.


 

Posts: 263
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Status: offline 		The Sirius and Hughes use a different technique to charge and monitor the peak charge of the battery. They use a 'peak predictor' type of charge to achieve maximum charge instead of of a 'delta' type circuit. The 'delta' type actually slightly over charges the unit and waits for the voltage to decline before terminating charge. The 'predictor' type anticipates the maximum charge before over charging and terminates the charge.
They also use a 'reflex' type charge circuit insted of a steady state charge.
Go to their websites to read more details.

(in reply to JNorton)
       Post #: 26

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/17/2004 12:28:49 PM   
AJF--2


 

Posts: 2061
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Snow Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline 		You are correct on the different detection systems--that is what makes the Sirrus better. The Hobbico actually "overcharges" the battery every charge, therefore shortening the life of the pack. Another thing that is not mentioned here is that every time you charge with the Sirus, it goes through a short cycle in the middle of the charge, thereby conditioning the pack and extending the life.

_____________________________

The Road Goes on Forever and the Party Never Ends - Robert Earl Keen

(in reply to GJr.)
       Post #: 27

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/17/2004 4:57:41 PM   
JNorton



Posts: 3137
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		[The Hobbico actually "overcharges" the battery every charge, therefore shortening the life of the pack.]

I am very tempted to say BALONEY to the above statement. There is so much hype associated with chargers. My charged packs are slightly warm at the end of a cycle. This does not indicate overcharging.

[it goes through a short cycle in the middle of the charge, thereby conditioning the pack and extending the life. ] So what is it supposed to do to lengthen battery life? How long is this short cycle? 2 minutes or less? What percentage of the total charge cycle?

Batteries are chemical devices that do not listen to add writers.
John

(in reply to AJF--2)
       Post #: 28

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/17/2004 7:39:04 PM   
laryboy



Posts: 719
Joined: 7/16/2003
From: wilmington, MA, USA
Status: offline 		i agree with you norton. i promised myself not to engage in this thread any more because the defense of sirrus was getting irrational. sirrus made a major mistake in the design of a charger that cannot charge a futaba transmitter. but if anyone likes sirrus, go for it.

(in reply to JNorton)
       Post #: 29

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/17/2004 11:32:17 PM   
GJr.


 

Posts: 263
Joined: 5/17/2003
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Status: offline 		No one is defending the Sirius or Hughes charger.
It is a fact that the Hobbico uses a different type of charge program. It is a 'Delta peak detection' type charge. It continues to charge until the detector senses a peak voltage and then continues to charge until a drop in peak voltage occurs. This difference (Delta) means the system has reached its peak voltage. But, in actuality, it means the cells have over charged slightly and cannot take any further charge and show a slight reduction in voltage due to the over charge. If the unit were to continue to charge it would damage the cells. This system has been around a long time and is realitvely cheap to produce. Many feel the slight over charging is acceptable.
Other chargers use a charge program that uses a more complex mathematical alogrithm formula to monitor the charge voltage. It calculates the 'slope' of the charge curve and 'predicts' the peak voltage. The charger then modulates the charge input and time to arrive at the calculated peak, before over charging can occur. Both chargers base their programs on type of cells and capacities. The 'pulse' or 'reflex' refers to the charger using a rapid, short, negative charge pulse in between the positve 'pulse' to help clear crystal growth within the cell layers. The reasoning is that it helps the cell to accept a maximum charge and eliminate the so called 'memory' effect for increased duration under load. These types of programs are typically newer technology and usually are more expensive.
Many of the upper end chargers can charge using many different techniques. Some can have their programming upgraded through a new chip or online programming. These units can charge all types of cells.
Supposedly, the new Hobbico charger due out soon, will be more like these upper end units. Time will tell.

(in reply to laryboy)
       Post #: 30

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 12:27:33 AM   
laryboy



Posts: 719
Joined: 7/16/2003
From: wilmington, MA, USA
Status: offline 		i like the part about the complex mathematical algorithm formula

(in reply to GJr.)
       Post #: 31

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 12:31:12 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3137
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		GJr,
Thank you for the lucid explanation of the "short cycle in the middle of the charge" that AJF--2 referred to. I'm an old fart, 53 been using Ni-Cads since the 60's. I'm an electrical engineer by trade but not in battery systems rather PLC automation controls. I have never experienced Ni-Cad memory. That said Sirius makes a fine charger. I personally do not think it warrants the extra money. My opinion. I'm on the third year charging batteries with the Hobbico and they still are 95 to 98 % of the mAh rating since being new. I do not consider my packs being detrimentally harmed.
John

(in reply to GJr.)
       Post #: 32

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 1:23:09 AM   
Flying Geezer



Posts: 1049
Joined: 4/12/2003
From: Bowling Green, KY, USA
Status: offline 		I can't speak for the Sirius chargers except to say they are good. I can speak for the CHARGE + by Hughes RC, as the design engineer.

GJR and AJF--2 are correct about the peak detection, but have a couple of things mis-construed, at least for the CHARGE +. First, "memory" is a myth, it's really voltage depression caused by overcharging or "negative peak detecting". A negative detecting charger won't kill your batteries, but will require regular cycling to maintain capacity and a high voltage peak.

The CHARGE + is not a "burp" charger that produces negative pulses. "Burp" chargers can damage the electronics in a turbine engine when used to charge the ECU pack.

The CHARGE + starts with a "soft start", a low current flow that increases gradually to 1A over a 5 minute period. This brings the battery chemistry back to a state where it is ready for some serious charging with out the risk of damage from venting and other undesirable consequences. Then the charge plus continues until the actual peak voltage of the battery pack is reached and stops the fast charge. GJR and AJF--2 have a good understanding of this, and seem to appreciate it's value.

After the fast charge is discontinued you can use your batteries, or, if you leave them connected they will receive a small topping charge which helps to balance the individual cells in the battery pack. The "soft start" and "slope detection", (actual peak, not voltage depressing negative peak), is what eliminates cycling. This is enhanced by the "topping charge". The topping charge is especially good for NIMH packs.

BUT, don't throw away your cycling device. You still need to test battery packs from time to time, just to be sure they aren't fading away, or have damage from high resistance shorts, etc..

JNORTON, I respect your choice of the Hobbico charger, and think it's worth every penny you paid for it. We all have to decide what equipment suits us, and the CHARGE + is not for everyone. But, I have to say I resent the remarks about false advertising. The National Labratory engineers in Albequerqe, NM, (I could never spell the name of that town), think it's good enough for the military UAV's they build and fly. They seem to know a little about modelling, and on a grand scale.

Hope this helps, and wish everyone happy charging with whatever they choose from wall moles up. Incidently, I will be advertising my Alpha 4 for sale as soon as we release our new battery analyzer in June. It's a great instrument, but I won't need it anymore. I know a lot of you guys love 'em, so I'm going to put it here instead of e-bay.

_____________________________

Flying Geezer
Hughes RC

(in reply to GJr.)
       Post #: 33

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 2:46:47 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3137
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Flying Geezer,
I apologize if my remarks were taken by you as a reference to the Hugh's chargers they were not meant to be. It would be difficult to compare a charging system that costs $200.00 to a $50.00 unit. The specifications and information you presented make sense to me. It sounds like a fine charging system.

Maybe my remarks about advertising were out of line, but traditionally Ni-Cads chargers have been sold by a lot of hoopla. The negative burp system being the one that comes most readily to mind. Memory effect on Ni-Cads is the other.

I did resent the implication that the Sirius charger was the only way to go. Delta peak units have been used for many years without destroying batteries. We were talking about a simple field charger meant to be used occasionally. I do not dispute that the slope detection system is better.

I apologize to any one else if they were offended by my remarks. I must realise this is a hobby and supposed to be fun.
John

(in reply to Flying Geezer)
       Post #: 34

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 2:55:00 AM   
AJF--2


 

Posts: 2061
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Snow Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

You are correct on the different detection systems--that is what makes the Sirrus better. The Hobbico actually "overcharges" the battery every charge, therefore shortening the life of the pack. Another thing that is not mentioned here is that every time you charge with the Sirus, it goes through a short cycle in the middle of the charge, thereby conditioning the pack and extending the life.



quote:

I did resent the implication that the Sirius charger was the only way to go. Delta peak units have been used for many years without destroying batteries. We were talking about a simple field charger meant to be used occasionally. I do not dispute that the slope detection system is better.



I read my quote and I read your quote-- Where did I say it was the "only way to go?" I just said it was better-- which is also what you said. BTW- I own both.

_____________________________

The Road Goes on Forever and the Party Never Ends - Robert Earl Keen

(in reply to JNorton)
       Post #: 35

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 3:00:26 AM   
Flying Geezer



Posts: 1049
Joined: 4/12/2003
From: Bowling Green, KY, USA
Status: offline 		No problem, John. I thought the discussion was getting a little out of hand and thought some clear facts would be helpful. You're absoultey right, it supposed to be fun.

I catch it from JR users at the field all the time. They just can't understand why I fly Futaba. I know that JR is great, but I started with Futaba, and have a lot of Futaba equipment, and I'm not likely to change soon. Truth is, I know the programming on Futaba, and don't want to have to learn the JR.

But, it gets all emotional sometimes, like the Ford/Chevy truck argument. I've never been much for peer pressure. Heck, I once owned a Studebaker. It was a piece of junk, but I'm not ashamed that I tried something different.

Enjoy the hobby.

_____________________________

Flying Geezer
Hughes RC

(in reply to JNorton)
       Post #: 36

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 10:59:30 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3137
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Guys,
AJF--2 I don't care to debate any longer. I posted what I thought was being said. Communication has two sides. Sometimes with imperfect understanding. I appologize.

I fly Futaba. I drive a Dodge. I own a Triton plus the Hobbico. I've also designed my own 8 channel charging system that uses TO-3 case LM317 for a variable C/10 constant current charge for 10 hours then changes to 1 hour daily for maintenance. Simple. Pick what you want.
Later,
John

< Message edited by JNorton -- 5/18/2004 6:07:30 AM >

(in reply to Flying Geezer)
       Post #: 37

RE: Sirius VS Hobbico - 5/18/2004 12:51:46 PM   
AJF--2


 

Posts: 2061
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Snow Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

AJF--2 I don't care to debate any longer. I posted what I thought was being said. Communication has two sides. Sometimes with imperfect understanding. I appologize.


No reason to appologise-- everybody has their own opinion and their own equipment--nothing wrong with that. Sometimes a person gets very passionate about their "stuff". I am a firm believer that it is still just a hobby and there are too many important things in the world to argue about than these silly toys we enjoy. I have become very careful about how I express my opinion and what I say. I learned my lesson about 6 years ago when I ripped a product that I thought was a piece of junk only to fi