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Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 9:17 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		The picture below (borrowed from the following wonderful site: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/eindeckero.htm shows the REAL turn performed by Max Immelmann and how it was advantageous in combat. This looks a damn sight more interesting that the "pattern" flyer version (simple half-loop with a half roll).

Anyone have any other descriptions of the "combat" maneouvers?

--Don



Reason for edit, took out the )

< Message edited by GrnBrt -- 4/30/2004 9:44:59 AM >

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 11:47 AM   
R101



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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 12:00 PM   
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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 12:56 PM   
Lucky Dog



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Status: offline 		Don,
Edit your post. You picked up a ) at the end of your link.
As far as "Would the real Immelmann please stand up". That's an interesting question.
I'm curious to see the responses as well.
Mike

< Message edited by Lucky Dog -- 4/27/2004 8:01:40 AM >


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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 12:59 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		The link will work if you remove the ) at the end of the html statment (essentially the end of the link).

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 1:09 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Basically, the site is dedicated to BALSA USA Eindecker fans. Here's the address again:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/eindeckero.htm

As for the " real " Immelmann , I always thought that the half loop and roll version didn't make much sense as a combat maneuver -- unless the ol' Max was looking for a real ly cool way to run away! The diagram below makes it clear that the function of the authentic Immelman was to reposition oneself relative to another (also moving) enemy aircraft after a failed attack.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/27/2004 11:27 PM   
Condor


 

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Status: offline 		That's a new definition of the Immelman for me. I have always seen it described as a way to reverse direction with minimum energy loss, rather than as an aggressive maneuver. The maneuver depicted and described looks similar to a "high yo-yo", in which the pursuer pulls vertical, rolls in the same direction the target is breaking but a little beyond, then pulls over the top, and finally performs a half roll to get right-side up again and on the target's rear quarter. Of course, the high yo-yo has a close relative, the low yo-yo, where the turn is also on the vertical plane but going down instead of up, used when the pursuer's energy stock is low but it still has enough that if it were to turn in the same plane as the opponent he would be turning outside the target. Both low and high yo-yos ensure the attacker turns inside the target's turn and wastes a minimum of energy, so that the attacker can either get a firing solution at the end of the maneuver or remain in the aggressive role until he can.

Cheers,

Juan M. Villaveces

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/28/2004 12:00 AM   
Cdallas2



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Status: offline 		With that particular description it sounds more like a "wing-over" than an "Immellman turn"

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/28/2004 7:18 AM   
Kmot



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Status: offline 		@Condor: Wow! What a description. Are you a military flight instructor?

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/28/2004 8:10 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Condor, this is precisely the sort of descriptions I'm interested in! This is "pilot" think rather than "making pretty patterns in the sky." It also reflex an more complex 3-dimensional understanding of space than most aerobatic moves seem to require. Coordinating your planes movements with the movements of a second aircraft moves things to a whole new level.

Where can I find more wisdom like this? I'd also be particularly interested in books with WWI pilot accounts of combat maneuvers.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/28/2004 1:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		The book "High in the Empty Blue" chronicles the formation and deployment of the 56th Squadron, 1916-1920. This book contains the flight journals and writings of the pilots of the 56th. They describe their flights and fights through out the book. Other similar books contain the same type of information. BobH.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/29/2004 12:41 AM   
Condor


 

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quote:

Are you a military flight instructor?


Not by a long shot! I don't even have a pilot's license, and probably wouldn't even know how to adjust the seat on a military aircraft. I'm just a fellow who has "invested" quite more than a healthy amount of time and effort on online air combat simulations, like Air Warrior (now defunct), Aces High, Warbirds, etc.

quote:

Where can I find more wisdom like this? I'd also be particularly interested in books with WWI pilot accounts of combat maneuvers


AFAIC the best ACM (air combat maneuvering) book is "Fighter Combat", by Robert Shaw, the Naval Institute Press, which was (or maybe still is) a textbook at Top Gun. You can find good discussion of theory and doctrine mixed with first-person accounts in Stephen Coonts' "War in the Air" and in Mike Spick's "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" and "Allied Fighter Aces of World War II". This is only scratching the surface, but if you're interested in keeping the books, those three would be a great start.

OTOH, if you want to learn a bit more about ACM without investing in books, going to the websites for the online combat sims and looking through their forums will probably net you a decent amount of material. Maybe even searching for "Air Combat Maneuvering" will probably provide you with lots of useful info.

Finally, I must say that I've practiced ACM quite a bit with RC planes, and it's not real ly all that fun. Those maneuvers were invented to be efficient, not to look good... and for the most part, they don't! For example, a perfectly executed high yo-yo will look like a botched stall turn or a mongrel wingover. If you're into R/C combat they may come in very handy, but otherwise they don't have all that much use in our world.

Cheers,

Juan M. Villaveces

< Message edited by Condor -- 4/28/2004 7:46:05 PM >

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/29/2004 2:21 AM   
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Status: offline 		Ah, Air Warrior! A supreme shame that they killed that game. I spent many an hour glued to my screen for sure and the alternatives just didn't cut it IMHO.. Skills learned in that kind of environment don't translate too well to RC unfortunately. RC is too fast and I'd hate to guess the G's. Add the remote location factor etc and it becomes a whole new skills set.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/29/2004 3:51 AM   
Condor


 

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After ea murdered Air Warrior, I went to Aces High with most of my squad, but I never real ly got to like it. As for Warbirds, I had tried it and discarded it even while AW was alive and well.

It was all those hours flying and fighting in AW that sparked my interest in R/C. I used to be a reasonably accomplished pilot there, so I assumed that flying those little toy airplanes would be a cinch... yeah, right! I ordered a trainer over the net, put it together, and proceeded to crash it, but got an incurable bug, so eventually I did learn how to fly (well, sort of), and now I spend even more time on R/C than I ever did on Air Warrior. The memories are awesome, though...

Juan M. Villaveces

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Excerpt from Shaw's book - 4/29/2004 4:35 AM   
Condor


 

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Status: offline 		abufletcher,

I decided to look up the Immelmann on Shaw's book, and it turns out that the description with which you started this thread seems to be right on, as far as the origins of the maneuver are concerned. My response is correct regarding ts current form, but not as far as the way it was originally done. Following (hopefully) are a couple of scans from pp. 153 and 154 in case somebody is interested.

Cheers,

Juan M. Villaveces

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< Message edited by Condor -- 4/29/2004 11:39:36 PM >

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/29/2004 7:24 AM   
Kmot



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Status: offline 		Wow, I never real ized there was a science to this stuff. I always thought it was just balls to the wall and yank the stick.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/29/2004 8:32 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		It WAS back in Immelman's time. It was yank the stick and PRAY the wings didn't come off! No wonder his opponents were so intimidated.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/30/2004 6:47 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		As the scan below (from the book Aces High by Alan Clark) reveals, the British were providing air combat tactical training by at least 1918. Another diagram states the following formula regarding aircraft stress during a loop: "The stress due to the curved path, is proportional to the square of the speed and inversely proportional to the radius of the curve." So I guess flying did turn into a science pretty darn fast!

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/30/2004 2:13 PM   
RCHYFLYER



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Status: offline 		I must agree with Condor that looks like a high Yo Yo! I too flew AW,Aw2,AW3D I fly in Aces High also as Hyflyer 9th Flying Knights ( Richards Bongs Squadron) I like doing the Double Immelmann in a P-38 Lightning by the time you are at the top with full flaps deployed your nose falls over from lack of air speed and your opponent has to look way up to see you're coming down from the heavens at him

< Message edited by RCHYFLYER -- 4/30/2004 9:15:09 AM >

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 4/30/2004 2:17 PM   
RCHYFLYER



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kmot

Wow, I never real ized there was a science to this stuff. I always thought it was just balls to the wall and yank the stick.

Do that in most airplanes in Aces High and the Wing will come off

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 5/2/2004 4:45 AM   
Condor


 

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quote:

I too flew AW,Aw2,AW3D I fly in Aces High also as Hyflyer 9th Flying Knights ( Richards Bongs Squadron)


I flew with the Dogz of War -- that's where my handle came from. I remember the Flying Knights, but can't recall whether were friends (Az) or foes (frogs or worms)?

Cheers either way! CRY HAVOC AND LET LOOSE THE DOGZ OF WAR!!!

Cóndor

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 5/2/2004 10:22 PM   
toy264



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Condor
The maneuver depicted and described looks similar to a "high yo-yo", in which the pursuer pulls vertical, rolls in the same direction the target is breaking but a little beyond, then pulls over the top, and finally performs a half roll to get right-side up again and on the target's rear quarter.
Cheers,

Juan M. Villaveces

I’ve been away from ACT for forty-five years, but what’s shown as an Immelman looks like the pursuer is exchanging excess airspeed for altitude to keep from over-shooting, then either pulling straight through over the top, or half rolling, depending on whether the target continues strait ahead or breaks. What we called a high-speed yo-yo was a series of high G porpoise maneuvers used to keep from overshooting, usually in a climbing attack from below and behind. You’d pull up hard, fire at the underside of the target, push over, then up again, then after two or three passes, split-s to disengage. The high G yo-yoing scrubbed off a lot of energy, so it was mostly confined to intercepts of bomber aircraft, although the F-100 guys used it a lot against the Luftwaffe F-86’s—there used to be 50 plane furballs over Germany in the fifties!
But as I say, I haven’t kept current, and the terminology may have changed.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 5/5/2004 4:39 AM   
R/C Art


 

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Status: offline 		I challenge someone to fly a scale Fokker Eindecker EI, EII or EIII, with scale airfoil and wing warping and not overpwered too much, and fly an Immelmann turn like a pattern ship......can't be done. But rather, like a couple of contributers have suggested, fly a reversing manuver and get attack position on your opponent again.
I call this mission oriented flying! I have a 1/3 scale Fokker EI and would love to fly against , say, a 1/3 scale DH-2 or a 1/3 Nieuport 11, or better yet a 1/3 scale Be2 or some other slow flying recon plane.
I will be at the Mint Julep scale meet on the 14, 15 and 16th of May. Don't attack me there, wait until the 11, 12 and 13th of Jun and fly at Eurika Springs, Arkansas at the Dawn Patrol Rally at Hammer Field. See the link at www.bealmear.com/dawn_patrol/ for more info.
I am serious about Mission Oriented Flying.....dog fighting these big ol' birds is great fun. The idea isn't to smash together like the combat guys do, but rather play cat and mouse and try to get postion on the other plane (without putting either plane in jepardy).
A couple of years back, me and another guy flew a 1/3 Pup and Dr1 in just that manner......WOW what an experience.
What do ya' think?

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 5/5/2004 8:00 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Art, sound like a LOT more fun than drawing figure 8's in the sky! I just wish I didn't live over here in California! That's a long haul to Arkansas! And just to be a spectator! But who knows. Anyway, I think mission oriented flying is definitely what I'll eventually be into.

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RE: Real Immelmann turn vs. faky aerobatic version - 5/5/2004 11:55 AM   
Lucky Dog



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Status: offline 		But figure 8's are hard! Good ones that is.


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