Nomadio Sensor Radio (Full Version)

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rlaxton -> Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/27/2004 1:35 PM)

Hi, just found out about a new radio product:

http://www.nomadio.net/subsensor1.html

Basically it is a terrestrial radio that uses the public 2.4GHz band and spread spectrum technology to provide a bidirectional link to the car being controlled. Up to 32 servos, programmable via USB, 9 sensor channels (temp, speed voltage).

Is it just me or is this the coolest Radio ever?

Richard.



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/27/2004 8:44 PM)

Hi,
I just want to introduce myself to the forum. Nomadio is monitoring and participating in all of the RC forums we are aware of, leading up to our first ship date, and beyond as a form of customer service outreach.

I can answer any questions that come up about the Sensor and of course will provide updates as they occur.

Roy Smith
Nomadio



Deandome -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/27/2004 10:56 PM)

Where do I begin....


WHEN will it be available? HOW MUCH $$ for a basic kit (Tx, Rx, maybe servos)?? WHAT KIND OF SERVOS does it come with/work with??

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE....coming out with a super-cool new product with ZERO history in the hobby?? Don't you know that we are all sheep who only look at 3-4 brands?

Is this a far-off pipe dream, or about to hit the shelves?

WE NEED INFO...NOW!!!!!



Dr.ArmoMaxx -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 12:00 AM)

[>:] INFO?



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 2:40 AM)

Deandome,
The Sensor System will be available in Late June- Early July. We have not finalized pricing but I feel comfortable in saying that it will be on the street below $500. When considering this pricing we urge you to think about comparing apples to apples. Here's what I'm talking about:

a backlit Futaba 3PK + a Futaba receiver + 2 crystals + niCD batteries + charger carries a list price of $849. This package would typically street over $600.
A backlit Sensor + transciever + temp, speed and voltage sensors + NiCD batteries + charger will sell in the high $400 range.

Extra transcievers will be $150 list.

Sensor works with all normal servos. We're not in the servo business - you can use the ones you already have.

Nomadio has developed control and telemetry systems for defense purposes since 2000. Our products are in use in several branches of the armed forces. We noticed the gaping opportunity in the RC hobby market in 2003 and a division of the company is now charged with bringing Sensor to the market. We believe our technology will revolutionize RC by making it more fun. With Sensor, you just turn on your car and go - no hijacks, no crystals, no pain.

It's not a far off dream at all. There are several people on some forums (RCZone) who have driven the Sensor in one of our consumer focus days last year. It's real. It works. We're waiting for plastic from china ... : (

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165549

At RCX, we heard over and over again that it's rare for new companies to come into the RC market and rarer still for them to have a disruptive technology that will obsolete a lot of the status quo. I think that within 3 years, you'll only see crystal radios used for the cheapie RTR vehicles and anyone who is serious will be using our technology (or similar stuff from the other radio companies - I'm sure we are forcing them to act ).

Keep the questions coming - we have a big education job ahead of us and the more people online who know the story the better!

Roy Smith
Nomadio

Ps. DrArmoMaxx - Nobody who has seen the Sensor in person ever said it looked like a 3PK. I'm sure you will agree if you ever get a chance to look at one in person. There are numerous ergonomic features that are present in Sensor that do not exist in any Futaba controller.



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 2:42 AM)

Wow! Censored in my second post..

The link in the last message got auto-edited by the RC Universe. The web site containing the link is

www.
radio
control
zone.
com

No spaces.



Dr.ArmoMaxx -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 2:48 AM)

ok...i bought my 3PK for $310

i really like that sensor stuff

when would it hit the stores? if hear good things about it, and if i like it, i will sell my 3PK and get that (unless Futaba comes up with its own sensores)

so on with that radio i can control more than 3 servos?



fhm101 -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 5:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlaxton
Up to 32 servos, programmable via USB, 9 sensor channels (temp, speed voltage).



Dr.ArmoMaxx -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 7:11 AM)

that is kinda too good to be true, and a rc car is not a robot, what you gonna do put fighting arms on your rc car?



sgtstop -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 12:33 PM)

My questions are 1)How do you intend to get the Part 97 & Part 15 rules (FCC Type regulations) opened up to allow R/C control operations in the 2.4 Ghz bands? 2)When you are in the same spectrum with all 900 million telephones here in the states that are on 2.4 Gig, how are interference issues going to be resolved. (PLEASE be as technical as you want... I can hang in there!

Thanks,

Dave



Deandome -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 3:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sgtstop

My questions are 1)How do you intend to get the Part 97 & Part 15 rules (FCC Type regulations) opened up to allow R/C control operations in the 2.4 Ghz bands?


I'm thinking this has been DONE, or there wouldn't be a new radio about to be released!! If you're gonna get technical, please link us to those "rules", as I find it hard to believe there ARE any restrictions. There are LOTS of devices using this spectrum, not just phones. Baby monitors,wireless cams/speakers/computers (??). I could see restricting the "wattage"/signal STRENGTH, but not the types of devices that use signals that are properly limited in range.

quote:

2)When you are in the same spectrum with all 900 million telephones here in the states that are on 2.4 Gig, how are interference issues going to be resolved. (PLEASE be as technical as you want... I can hang in there!


I am NOT a technical geek, but I'm pretty sure it's the spread spectrum/DIGITAL spread spectrum that enables all these phones & other devices to work without interference. The Tx & Rx set up a unique "code" (and there are BILLIONS of 'em) each time they hook up, and I think it shifts constantly.

I'll let you two techs talk shop now, but all I know is that since cordless phones have gone to the mhz range and/or incorporated SS/DSS techonlogy, interference/crosstalk has NEVER been an issue.

Dean



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 4:53 PM)

SgtStop,
I queried our technical lead and here's what he said:

We are not an "Amateur radio service", under part 97 of the FCC rules,
we are a "consumer ISM device" under part 18 of the FCC rules.

The Sensor uses a number of technologies to avoid interference with
other 2.4 GHz devices. The Sensor is smart enough to detect other
devices operating in the 2.4GHz range in same area, and move to other
parts of the band. It also sends signals multiple times on multiple
frequencies to make sure that they get through even if there is
interference. Finally unlike any other RC radio it uses special codes
in its messages so that other radio signals on the same frequency will
never be mistaken for a command to your car.

Which is to say that we have it covered :-)

I think that answers your question. Let me know if you have other questions.

Roy
Nomadio



sgtstop -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 8:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomadio

SgtStop,
I queried our technical lead and here's what he said:

We are not an "Amateur radio service", under part 97 of the FCC rules,
we are a "consumer ISM device" under part 18 of the FCC rules.


That's a good thing. I wasn't sure how you were classified. Not enough info available to make an educated guess.

quote:

The Sensor uses a number of technologies to avoid interference with
other 2.4 GHz devices. The Sensor is smart enough to detect other
devices operating in the 2.4GHz range in same area, and move to other
parts of the band. It also sends signals multiple times on multiple
frequencies to make sure that they get through even if there is
interference. Finally unlike any other RC radio it uses special codes
in its messages so that other radio signals on the same frequency will
never be mistaken for a command to your car.


So DSS is in your bag of tricks as well. Logical enough having been in Comms with DOD.

Sounds like a good setup to me. Let us know where we can buy one... I'll get on the list.

Dave



Dr.ArmoMaxx -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 8:39 PM)

do u have pic's of the real thing, not animated? and i want to see what the sensors look like



Deandome -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/28/2004 10:00 PM)

It'd be nice to see the sensors, I think the pics on the Nomadio site ARE real photos, and this is another from the RCX show (via a MGT forum):

http://monstergtforum.com/news/default.asp?cmd=view&articleid=1209



rlaxton -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/29/2004 2:11 AM)

Since the vendor has responded to my message, I have a few questions of my own:

1. What about range? How does it compare to that of a normal FM radio?
2. When will we see versions for aeromodelling use?
3. Can a PC interface with the TX when it is on and send and receive signals? Could be very cool for amateur robotics.
4. Any chance of a webcam as a sensor or would that need too much bandwidth?

Good to see that inovation is still alive at the most fundamental level of the sport.



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/29/2004 3:46 AM)

Rlaxton,
I'll answer your questions in order.

1 - if we used the big antenna that is on the prototype pictured in RCX photos, the range would be 1 mile. The real antenna is about 3 inches long and yields a usable range of 1/2 mile.

2- If we had a nickel for every flyer that came by the booth at RCX begging for Sensor/Aero, we'd be rich!. We chose to address surface vehicles first to establish our company in the market. For a variety of reasons Sensor's technology is really really interesting for flyers (for example it's expandable to support 16 servos at 12 bits (4096 steps) per servo - that's a lot of things to control! You could use one channel for 12 "on/off" things and still have 15 moving servos.) What we'll need to do is get Sensor/Surface shipping and happy and then we'll turn our attention to air vehicles. There are some issues to resolve with AMA and FCC since flying is much more potentially dangerous. That being said, the guys who fly $10K planes and have been hijacked by some kid in the pits turning on his radio are more than ready for new technology. The "Air Sensor" would definitely be a new case design with joysticks and probably a big screen like a PDA. And like crystal air radios, it would be more expensive. We were also a hit at the show with the robot wars guys because of the extra channels possible for death rays, neutron phasers, etc. <grin>.

3- I doubt that the code specifically supports that right now - we have designed the USB to capture the telemetry while you are driving. the good news is that it certainly could be done - it's only software. Unlike legacy RC radios, Sensor is software driven. We plan to provide a developer's kit and of course software updates, some free, and some with a charge if there is a lot of development involved.

4- We already do the cam thing for several of our military sentry platforms. At this point it takes too much horsepower to mpeg encode in the car so we use a separate analog video transmitter on the robot. This works acceptably well for the uses that the military wants but it's certainly not broadcast quality. There is glitching when you are moving around. Someday when digital video is cheap we'll be able to send it down the telemetry pipe but that's going to be a while.

5- the sensors look a lot like servo extensions - none of the sensors I've seen is larger than a dime and they are very light. As soon as we have approved product shots, I will post them here and on our web site.

Thanks for the great questions - keep them coming!

Roy
Nomadio



fhm101 -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/29/2004 6:12 PM)

What if we just want glitch free one way com with the car and don't want the return data?



Deandome -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/29/2004 6:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fhm101

What if we just want glitch free one way com with the car and don't want the return data?


YOU'RE S.O.L.!!!

The Nomadio guy might be nicer, but c'mon, do you think they're gonna start working on a dumbed-down version before the regular one hits the street (if EVER!!)?? Or an airplane version????

Besides, I'm pretty sure the ONLY way you can have a DSS connection is when you have a 2-way connection!! The Tx & Rx are constantly "talking" to each other, shifting frequencies together, etc. What you're asking for, fhm, is like asking for a digital cordless phone that only lets you talk w/o hearing the other party!! The technology needed for a one way DSS/ghz range connection is, well, the same as a 2-way.

Maybe they'll sell a version without SENSORS, but given the name of the radio, and guessing that the sensors are probably pretty cheap, I doubt it.



rlaxton -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/30/2004 12:50 AM)

Roy,

Thanks for the extra information.

> 1 - if we used the big antenna that is on the prototype pictured in RCX photos, the range would be 1 mile. The real antenna is about 3 inches long >and yields a usable range of 1/2 mile.

That is very impressive ground range! There are conventional airplance radios that don't have a 1 mile range.

It looks like you are considering the same legal hurdles that I was thinking of. Your plan to prove the reliability and stability of the radio on the ground should work well. After all a 4kg monster truck doing 70km/h is a completely different proposition from a 15kg, 3m long model F-14 doing 400km/h as it power dives into the crowd.

Exactly how much bandwidth would be available to a camera with the existing system? Is there any chance that the system will be open to the addition of new sensor made by enthusiasts and/or third party companies?

Richard.



fhm101 -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/30/2004 5:47 AM)

I'm confused. I know little enough about what makes any kind of electronic device work so please bear with me here. I'm assuming from the reply to my question that the sensors will run the servos? I'm tryng to find out if i can only run my servos without all the onboard data collection? It would be nice for testing and setting up the car, but once it's race time, every gram counts.



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/30/2004 6:01 AM)

rlaxton,
We plan to support the "hacker" aspect of RC by selling a "developer's kit" that will allow people to use the Sensor system for whatever they want (as long as they buy our hardware of course). It will not be a "closed" system like so many of the systems in RC. Keep in mind our background is the PC industry so we are all about providing a great platform that does what 95% of the people want out of the box, and then supporting the other 5% by giving them the "hooks". Compare the IBM PC (open) vs. Macintosh (closed) architecture - how did that work out? Oh yeah - 3% market share for the Apple closed architecture. <g>

fhm101,
I've been asked this question by buggy drivers before. Yes you can remove the sensors for the actual race and it will all work fine.



Nomadio -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (4/30/2004 6:09 AM)

rlaxton,
I forgot the bandwidth question .. The uplink from the car doesn't have enough bandwidth even if you could encode digital video on the car.

I've seen this on-car video a lot on our bomb disposal robots and I can tell you that it's not really very useful while the car is moving. Imagine the worst cameraman in the world, intentionally shooting as jerky as possible. It's bad. I think on-car video is one of those things that sounds like a good idea until you actually see it.

Roy



sgtstop -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (5/1/2004 12:12 AM)

More questions on this rig:

1) What is the power set-up? Is it "AA" sized cells that the end user can replace or is it a TX specific sized pack that will also be available seperately, or is it an internal, soldered in pack that cannot be changed?

2) What kind of time are we talking on recharging the batteries? I know I hate to wait!

3) My local hobby shop is seriously interested in this technology, as well as I am.... Where can he go to find dealer information, etc. so he can stock this bad-boy for me to buy?

This is sounding like one of those "too good to be true" items, but with the reputation that Nomadio has with the Military, I'd have to say that this will be anxiously awaited in my hands.

Dave



fhm101 -> RE: Nomadio Sensor Radio (5/1/2004 1:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomadio
Yes you can remove the sensors for the actual race and it will all work fine.

Good news, and not just from a weight standpoint. At the current time, any electronic data gathering/ trasmitting device is illegal under ROAR rules.



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