Over reacting !!!  
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Over reacting !!! - 7/1/2002 6:51:00 PM   
budcop



Posts: 237
Joined: 12/10/2001
From: Gray, TN, USA
Status: offline 		I think a lot of folks are over reacting! I spoke with the VP on June 1st, among other things he did mention the hovering situation and it is NOT to "ban hovering" , the concerns that he communicated were with individuals approaching the aircraft on the runway while it is hovering and holding the tail. I have not seen this done or would think it would be allowed anywhere myself but , this thread seems to be a "doomsday" thread for hovering in general, and that is NOT the case, you guy's who can control a plane while hovering like some of the guy's in our club are SUPERIOR pilot's! That maneuver takes a great amount of skill! most pilot's who practice these maneuvers are considerate of the others flying, as posted , ALL flyers just need to be considerate of one another. Don't take a particular isolated incident and call a "Ban" for all, thats not what it is........Bud

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AMA 1651

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       Post #: 51

- 7/2/2002 5:43:51 PM   
Hubb


 

Posts: 369
Joined: 3/16/2002
From: Lebanon, OH, USA
Status: offline 		I was witness to one of these "grab the hovering plane" deals recently. THAT I can see the AMA stepping in and trying curb as an unheathy activity.

the plane in question was a 35% edge. the "grabber" would grab the tail, work his way up the fuse until he could get at the wing, and just pluck the plane out of the hover and set it down.

totally insane to watch. mostly I loved it!! but a part of me was cringing about it thinking - boy, could this be some bad press if something went wrong!.

theres another $.02, (man this is getting expensive)

Hubb

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       Post #: 52

- 7/2/2002 6:50:13 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tattoo


Wow, you guys are a tough crowd when voicing an opinion, but it looks like I better refrain from posting opinions...lest you guys jump all over em [/QUOTE]

Tatoo,

We've had it out on other subjects in the past. This is the first posting you've put up that I can agree with.

Please don't curtail you're posting simply because we both seem to hit it off bad online. I think we would get along well at the flying field, you just seem to touch the trigger points of my psyche online. Sorry to jump on you but, you echo the viewpoints of the ones I've had to combat at the club meetings. You know, the ones who;
- want everyone to fly the same plane and do ciruits only
- don't want no d*mn whirleybirds at the field
- don't like them hoverin' types messin up their circuits
- don't like them nasty profile planes or anything that doesn't look like a "real" plane
- don't like APC props 'cause they're dangerously sharp
- ....

Check [URL=http://jim_mcintyre.tripod.com/wonder.html]this[/URL] out.

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- 7/2/2002 7:32:05 PM   
DavidR



Posts: 2602
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Oxford, MS, USA
Status: offline 		Let me see if I understand.......


30% or larger airplane with a 20+ inch diameter prop, plane is hovering at eye level in front of a crowd of spectators or worse yet pilots busy flying their airplanes on the flightline. This is safe right????? I don't care how much skill you have as a pilto or how good you think you are airplanes can break, radios can fail and what do you have a flying meat cleaver that can go into the pilot's stations. I have nothing against hovering, I can do it and it is really not that big a skill. If you must hover why not do it well on the far side of the runway instead of right in the face of spectators.


David Reid

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       Post #: 54

- 7/2/2002 7:43:42 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		let me see if I understand....

Same plane... doing a high speed pass. This is safer how?

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- 7/2/2002 8:05:15 PM   
mmorg1


 

Posts: 88
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: las cruces, NM, USA
Status: offline 		guys go fly your airplanes, have fun. Scale guys hovering is cool, just as cool as the 12' B-17 that requires alot of airspace. If the guy hovering bothers you ask him to do it to the side of the runway, or even better ask if you could fly his airplane. New Experiences Are Good!

(in reply to mpj220)
       Post #: 56

- 7/2/2002 9:10:21 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6824
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: online 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
let me see if I understand....

Same plane... doing a high speed pass. This is safer how? [/QUOTE]

Depending on the location, the issue is the duration of exposure.

Yes, both activities carry risks (as does all R/C aircraft activity). However, think for a minute about the amount of time that the other pilots are exposed to the danger.

When someone is doing high-speed passes while I'm flying, I am exposed to the danger from his aircraft for maybe 1 second per pass, with each circuit taking maybe 20 seconds (?) - so I'm exposed to the danger maybe 5% of the time I'm out there. Conversely, when someone hovers their giant-scaler right in my face they tend to do it almost CONTINUOUSLY. Thus my exposure, and consequently the overall risk, is VERY much higher. Now, if they would move that hover to somewhere else (away from me) then my exposure in this case would actually be less than from a high-speed pass.

YMMV. For what it's worth, I'm not against either high speed passes or hovering. I do (or try to do) both myself (sometimes quite badly), but I do my best to ensure that each is done either when I'm up alone, or done sufficiently far out so as to reduce risk to other pilots on the flightline. One thing I've never understood about some of the guys doing the very-close-in hovering in my club, is why they refuse to do it in front of themselves, and instead insist on doing it right in front of one of the other pilots. There would probably be less complaints if they would do it in front of themselves...

Regards,
Gordon

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       Post #: 57

- 7/2/2002 9:29:05 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Some good points Gord,

I disagree only slightly with the "exposure time" pov though. The high speed pass carries far more kinetic energy and far more "potential area coverage" so the two cannot be compared directly based on time exposed.
Also,
If I have a radio glitch while hover, my pcm system will simply shut down my throttle and I'm left with a broken plane almost directly under where I was hovering. If I'm doing a high speed pass however....

When I fly a scale plane I have a lot of time into, I simply pick a quiet time or as for some free airspace time....

I also, am not against either maneuver in question and think comon sense should prevail. As for hovering in front of other pilots; bad form! Someone might think mistake them for performing the maneuver and me endlessly flying circuits.

Seriously, when I hover it's always toward the outer limit of the runway and always directly in front of me. The torque rolls (when I can manage them) do drift with the wind though but, I always bail out before getting any closer than mid runway. Courtesy is prime, I clear out when someone else wants centre stage or needs the runway. Same goes when I fly heli at the field, no problems or complaints so far. There were a few nervous nellies when I introduced helis to the flightline but, the last couple years they've been accepted as equals (as they should be).

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- 7/2/2002 9:35:18 PM   
jnjacksn



Posts: 251
Joined: 3/11/2002
From: Cleveland, MS,
Status: offline 		If you read all the post on this web site and find the ones someone is "venting" on you will be here for a long time.

Some of this gets absolutely ridiculous. This is so simple it doesn't even require thought.

You are going to die one day, you can't stop it, you can't prevent it.

After hovering, helicopters, jets, gassers, 4 strokes, two strokes, electrics, rubber bands, and everything else someone wants to ban is banned, we can all go to the field and watch the birds fly by.

Until, a bird flies into somebody and puts out an eye. While we are at it, better ban the birds too...

I'm gonna practice my hovering my gas powered, jet propelled, giant scale, helicopter with wings held on by rubber bands airplane now... At the local elementary school so the little kids can see....

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My Opinion on Hovering, by John Wells - 7/2/2002 9:57:51 PM   
John Wells



Posts: 820
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Overland Park, KS, USA
Status: offline 		It's OK with me. Did you think I was going to go on and on??? Haaaaa! I expressed my lengthy opinion in the last one like this.

1) Taildrager, you did five for fighting and I think you should be let out of the box now.

2) Dave Bowles, keep on hovering your disc, it looks awesome!!

3) We should all elect Marc (rcadmin) for the AMA President.

And now for the bottom line......

Courtesy, courtesy, courtesy at the field.

JW

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       Post #: 60

- 7/2/2002 11:39:22 PM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6824
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: online 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim_McIntyre
Some good points Gord,

I disagree only slightly with the "exposure time" pov though. The high speed pass carries far more kinetic energy and far more "potential area coverage" so the two cannot be compared directly based on time exposed.

[/QUOTE]

I agree that the fast pass is likely to carry more energy, however for the majority of the circuit the aircraft is pointed away from the flightline, so that energy is also directed away from the flightline. That may of course vary depending on PCM/PPM choice, PCM failsafe settings etc - but in my experience the mast majority of PCM users set their failsafe to "hold", so I'm basing the above on that.


Also, If I have a radio glitch while hover, my pcm system will simply shut down my throttle and I'm left with a broken plane almost directly under where I was hovering. If I'm doing a high speed pass however....


Again, that depends on both the position of the aircraft at the time of the glitch, and the failsafe settings (if any). Not everyone is as smart as you when it comes to these settings. Since most people (in my experience) wrongly look at failsafe as a way to try to save their aircraft rather than a way of reducing risk to life & limb, they tend to set "hold" ... which would not be pretty for a 40% aircraft that is hovering 25ft in front of me. Additionally, consider the failsafe delay... I see an awful lot of people selecting 1 second - and that's plenty of time for a close-in aircraft to tilt inwards and shew me up while it's waiting for either (a) a valid signel, or (b) 1 second to elapse before engaging failsafe settings.

Again, I'm not trying to suggest that high-speed passes are safe and hovering close-in is not - I'm just trying to point out that if we think things through then we can in each case figure out whether there is an easy way of reducing the risk without killing off the fun.

Regs,
Gordon

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       Post #: 61

- 7/3/2002 12:28:39 AM   
can773



Posts: 1663
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: online 		This is very entertaining

So far I have seen just about all the disciplines mentioned, with the exception of pattern fliers.

I guess we are just nice friendly guys to fly with, maybe you should all just start flying pattern and this whole hovering thing would go away

The world would be a better place if everyone flew pattern


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- 7/3/2002 12:51:37 AM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Nice troll, adding patttern into the mix. Too bad Gerald (DR1Driver) isn't here to add his rant re: the comparative pleasures of watching pattern or watching paint dry.

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- 7/3/2002 1:17:24 AM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gordon Mc


... I see an awful lot of people selecting 1 second - and that's plenty of time for a close-in aircraft to tilt inwards and shew me up while it's waiting for either (a) a valid signel, or (b) 1 second to elapse before engaging failsafe settings.
[/QUOTE]

Ouch! Good point Gordon.
I understand the fail-safe delay is not even programmable for some models. I wonder what the default is....

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