RE: Future of Composites  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       



All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Pylon Universe - RC Pylon Racing >> Q-500 Racing >> RE: Future of Composites Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Future of Composites - 5/14/2004 5:42:32 PM   
SSAN



Posts: 446
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Queen Creek, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Dan,

I haven't been doing this racing that long, but I do higly agree with you regarding the high cost of composites. If it were up to me, I will have it all WOOD airplane in 428 only. That way it would keep the total cost down, bring more entry up and people can afford to race or build their own to compete without paying $400-500 for one like it is today.

Just my opinion.

_____________________________

SAM-RAI... The Ultimate WOOD Q-500!
www.Sam-RaiRacing.com

(in reply to DMyer)
       Post #: 26

RE: Future of Composites - 5/14/2004 6:16:05 PM   
DMyer


 

Posts: 495
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Potomac, MD, USA
Status: offline 		Dave wrote:

"If a competitive, lower cost, Asian built composite was available, I think that would have a HUGE impact on local 428. Very similar to the upswing many of us have seen with local 424 due to the $110 Arfs. "


Absolutely right..... The only other factor to hold anyone back wanting real speed is that $350.00 blade turner... but let's not go there! I don't know if we will ever routinely see 20+ entries again for 428.... but I just feel we need to try something before it is too late. The old formula one guys should be able to relate to that. As for the need to get the very last bit of performance potential out of an airframe, exactly how much has the 2.5 mile 428 record fallen since the composites became common taking into consideration the fact that the engines have also improved as well as propeller technology? I am convinced that my $50 homegrown woodies with a 66-012 airfoil is aerodynamically at least 95% as good as any composite. For most people... that is plenty good. Locally... the fast times are virtually the same between woodies and molded planes for the same sets of good thumbs(not mine). So we have spent all this time and money for at most a second or two for a few gifted pilots to fly in a much smaller local matrix. Dosn't make too much sense to me.


Dan

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 27

RE: Future of Composites - 5/14/2004 10:22:54 PM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online 		The $350 blade turner is a seperate issue altogether, but I think a cheaper airframe would make that more palatable. The engines tend to survive the crash, and I've had no problems getting 3-4 good years out of a Nelson.

If there is a 5 mph difference in speed (Composites to Woodies) at 170 mph that equates to only about a 3% difference. The problem is, if your trying to catch the top guys, you'll have a tough time doing it with a 3% disadvantage.

As to times, if a composite is doing 10 laps in 1 minute 10 seconds, that 3% speed difference would make that time a 1 minute 12.1 second heat (Or nearly a third of a lap down). When you look at it that way, it is a BIG difference.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to DMyer)
       Post #: 28

RE: Future of Composites - 5/14/2004 11:31:04 PM   
DHG


 

Posts: 896
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Ironically, without that $350 blade turner (or with a smaller $350 blade turner, say, a .25) the advantage of the micro-smooth composite surface becomes much less. Anyone who uses a $450 composite for local racing with Thunder Tigers is basically throwing their money away -- it's only the perception of an advantage that discourages everybody else.

But of course, the fact that a problem may be "only psychological" doesn't make it any less of a problem.

C.G. Jungmeister

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 29

RE: Future of Composites - 5/15/2004 1:01:03 AM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online 		Flying composites in 424 is a waste in my opinion. Most of their airfoils were designed to run at much higher speeds and do not offer much of an advantage at 120-130 mph.

One of the fastest planes in our local 424 class happens to be a doddger that some fool happened to sell to another racer at quite an attractive rate. You'd think Green planes would fetch a higher price.

Signed,

The fool.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to DHG)
       Post #: 30

slightly slower - 5/15/2004 8:13:00 AM   
Tony Pacini


 

Posts: 276
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Another point to consider: perhaps the molded wings are just a bit faster because they tend to flex less. A wing that bends in a turn will be slower. The trick is making a foam wing as stiff as a molded wing without going overboard on weight (something I haven't been able to master).

Some of the foamies are using the same airfoils as the composites. Some of the composites (especially the older ones) have washout, too, which can slow things down a bit.

I can't remember how many times I've watched Del Ponte's "woodies" walk all over the modern composites. It CAN be done. Don't give up!

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 31

RE: Future of Composites - 5/16/2004 9:34:15 AM   
SSAN



Posts: 446
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Queen Creek, AZ, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daven

If a competitive, lower cost, Asian built... was available, I think that would have a HUGE impact on local 428.


Dave,

There is one. It is call, the SAM-RAI! Lmao...

_____________________________

SAM-RAI... The Ultimate WOOD Q-500!
www.Sam-RaiRacing.com

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 32

RE: Future of Composites - 5/17/2004 3:13:45 PM   
Stand



Posts: 94
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		For the past couple of months I have been experimenting with Terry Luckenbach's composite molding technique using Hydrocal. So far I only made fiberglass cowls. The total cost to make a mold, other than the time, about $0.50. I can get a 50 lb. bag of hydrocal for $14 at a local pottery supply store. If you mess up a mold or don't like the resulting flying characteristics you just throw the mold away. You mix this stuff up and pour it over the plug after a hour or so, while the Hydrocal is still hot (curing) you pop the dams out and free the plug from the base board and let the whole thing set up for a day. Then you pop the plug loose and you have a mold ready to be prepped with epoxy etc.

I can duplicate a Neme-Q or any other wing using Hydrocal and still have a usable wing when I'm done; i.e., the plug is still good. Same goes for the fuse. The only disadvantage is that the resulting mold is not good for mass production; only several parts can be pulled ten or twelve cowls for the same airplane is enough for me!. However, when you have a design that your happy with ("and I think you'll be happy" )you can make a high volume mold using the Hydrocal one.

The glider community seems to at the forefront of developing new building techniques and in sharing with others. Terry demonstrates all the steps to create a mold for the "Pretty Mantis" fuse, for a price. There's also a vacuum bagging video by Phil Barnes.
http://www.paonline.com/hayman/video.htm

Stan D.

< Message edited by Stand -- 5/17/2004 4:02:47 PM >

(in reply to SSAN)
       Post #: 33

RE: Future of Composites - 5/17/2004 4:01:37 PM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online 		Not that I'm a hard sale Stan, but you just cost me $39 plus shipping. I'll be curious to see the composites video, maybe start with another set of wing tip molds.

I have the Phil Barnes Video "Vacumm bagging made easy" and it is pretty good. Although aimed at sailplanes, and Non-Sheeted foam construction, it still has quite a few tricks inside to be had. Its long, and can get boring at parts, but it really helped with how I now do my tails for quickees. I hope the Composite Video also has a few things that will help me, I'm sure it will.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to Stand)
       Post #: 34

RE: Future of Composites - 5/18/2004 2:20:36 PM   
Stand



Posts: 94
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Actually, Dave, you're the one that cost me $$. You turned me on to the Phil Barnes videos and when I saw Terry Luckenbach's video become available I bought that too. What goes around comes around!

< Message edited by Stand -- 5/18/2004 2:20:58 PM >

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 35

RE: slightly slower - 5/18/2004 3:24:57 PM   
SSAN



Posts: 446
Joined: 1/19/2002
From: Queen Creek, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Hmmm... It looks like both of you guys are spending some pocket changes $$.


Hey Stand,

When are you coming back to Phoenix to race with us at SpeedWorld?
We would really like to have you back to play with us in 424 and 428.

_____________________________

SAM-RAI... The Ultimate WOOD Q-500!
www.Sam-RaiRacing.com

(in reply to Stand)
       Post #: 36

RE: slightly slower - 5/18/2004 7:24:21 PM   
ColeThornton


 

Posts: 299
Joined: 10/30/2003
From: Clarkdale, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		i would like to c more people in 428 more so than 424...not only because i race in 424 but i would like to c better turnouts in the 428 class.

Cole


_____________________________

SAM-RAI Racing

(in reply to SSAN)
       Post #: 37

RE: slightly slower - 5/18/2004 10:15:24 PM   
Stand



Posts: 94
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Sam,
Wish I could, it's a little bit of a trip for me. You guys have an ideal situation with the permanent course set up at Speedworld. And I miss the monthly races and the good times.

You might want to look into those videos that Dave and I have mentioned. Even if you don't incorporate the actual methods they are full of helpful techniques that I am now using in my shop. If nothing else you can make wing tip molds real easy.

No offense Dave, but the Seeker could definitely benefit from fiberglass wing tips. From the pictures in the other thread, the wing tips look very turbulant. When I was making Jim Allens Quik-V IV for Speedworld club members I used Jim's wing-tip mold. When I changed the wing to a faster airfoil, the tips no longer fit, so I made a new mold and it took about a week, I documented that project on another forum. Using the Hydrocal I could have done it in a couple of days!

Regards,
Stan

(in reply to ColeThornton)
       Post #: 38

RE: slightly slower - 5/18/2004 11:10:46 PM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online 		Stan,

I am using fiberglass tips on my Seekers. I had a friend make a mold for me, but he is charging $25 for a set which most people feel is a bit high. I've been buying them, and like them alot. Just adds a lot of cost to a kit that was meant to be inexpensive.

Heres a picture.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize