RE: slightly slower

RE: slightly slower
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RE: slightly slower - 6/16/2004 4:42:34 PM

DHG

Posts: 896
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
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"Winning races" and "designing better airplanes" are two different enterprises involving completely different skill sets. Unless you have time and money to pursue both of them simultaneously, you'll have to choose one over the other and focus on it first, leaving the other one on the back burner. It's not fair to dismiss a guy's new design because he didn't win a trophy the first time out, any more than it's fair to dismiss a guy's ability because he wins with off-the-shelf equipment. They're both applying skill and dedication in their own way, according to their own list of priorities.

To win with your own design, now, that's the Big Kahuna in my book. It doesn't happen very often. But when it does, it's worth the wait!

Old & Still Bold

(in reply to js3)

Post #: 51

RE: slightly slower - 6/16/2004 7:01:58 PM

luv to race

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline

"Disadvantages: 1. Seems like they are always heavy. 2. always expensive. 3. and you are tied to the designers aerodynamics."

I flew one of Terrance's NEME-Q's at the Winterfest this year. I think the weight was about 1/2 oz over. That seems acceptable. They can be a bit much on the pocket book. But I didn't feel tied to the design... I had a choice before I bought it. Just talked to some friends and gathered some info...

The best part about composites. No covering to deal with.

(in reply to DHG)

Post #: 52

RE: slightly slower - 6/16/2004 8:38:19 PM

daven

Posts: 6893
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: online

Heavy composites is not a fact.

I had to add a 1/2 oz of weight to my first Neme-Q to get to the minimum. My latest Vortex was 1 oz heavy which is very acceptable to me.

What I like best about the composites is the consistancy. If you like how one flies, you can buy more and they all seem to fly the same. With wood, even though they are close, only about 1 out 3 are exceptional (at least with my building skills).

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 53

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 1:47:42 AM

Bill Vargas

Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: js3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Vargas

Hey HighPlains, let us know when your experiments start winning Races

BV

Hey Bill,

Just FYI, HighPlains is a former 428 Q500 record holder and that was with one of his designs.

Must have been an "older" woody design from way back when? I guess if he signed his name to his post it might explain,,,

BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to js3)

Post #: 54

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 2:18:18 AM

HighPlains

Posts: 2663
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Hi Bill,

It was 1998, a while back if you're new to the sport.

I see a lot of my designs in some of the current airplanes.

I used to live and race in California.

I introduced the high aspect wing into F1 in 1988

I introduced the expanding width fuselage in Quickie in 1994

Enough clues?

(in reply to Bill Vargas)

Post #: 55

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 4:33:07 AM

Bill Vargas

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From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline

Nope,,, I think your Champ days were before my time

For some reason I think that you don t like them composite planes? And I find it interesting that you don t see the advantage with sealed or glass hinges like the High Performance Composite planes have now a days.

BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to HighPlains)

Post #: 56

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 5:18:54 AM

HighPlains

Posts: 2663
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From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Hey Bill,

It’s not that I don’t like composite airplanes, I just don’t think that they are higher performance than a well designed, carefully built balsa and foam quickie. I find it interesting that people think that they need one to be competitive. They don’t! Are they easier to get into the air – certainly! Are they consistent in performance? Perhaps, though with many of the designs moving to balsa for the core material, you end up with variations in strength, weight, and balance – same as a balsa/foam model. But when you are tied to the composite plane’s designer, you’re not going have an airplane any better, and maybe slightly worse. There are those that have CNC molds for the wings, and that is a plus. But with experience, you can sand about as well since waviness is the critical aspect of most airfoils in the first third of the chord. As far as the ailerons with the flex hinge – the air is completely turbulent by the time you reach that point. So no, it is not important what hinging system you use. It is good to seal the gap line with tape so that the airfoil is not “short circuited”.

(in reply to Bill Vargas)

Post #: 57

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 12:06:36 PM

luv to race

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline

Well I was around in 98'.. I just ca't remember who the record holder was. What was the time? that might help me remember..

Maybe you can do me a favor? My personal builder (Mr. Vortex) built me a foam wing quickee that had the same design fuse that I fly on the composite wing quickee. It sucks! I'm traffic! A moving roadblock! Could you possible help us with a new wing? and not the NACA66-012. I already have a mold on that one.

And what is a expanding width fuse?

Never the less.... come out of retirement! (if you're retired) racing is on the decline and we need bodies.

(in reply to HighPlains)

Post #: 58

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 2:11:53 PM

HighPlains

Posts: 2663
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From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Randy is that you?

Gee, I called for you in the Quickie championship there at Castle in 99 or so. It's been a while, and I did semi-retire. My receiver decided to go deaf at that race, ballistic is such an ugly word when applied to pylon planes seeking the ground!

My poor old wing templates have no numbers. There were derived from Danny's uncle Jack. Jack was a glider designer. I would guess that there would be a lot of racers glad if you were now as slow as a traffic barrier. But I rather doubt you are. You were going pretty good back at Castle, and from what I've read a lot faster since. What's this Florida thing?

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 59

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 2:15:12 PM

Freeman Jr.

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Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Donny , FL, USA
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Is the masked man Bob Dibble. I think that is how you spell it. sorry

Like Randy said, his Dad is probably one of the best builders in the hobby and if anyone is going to build the perfect straight balsa plane it would be him. It just doesn't compare to the composite wing version. It is a good stepping stone but you won't win a NATS with it.

It seems that this issue comes up every year, but no one ever bucks up and shows up at the nats or any big race with a competitive balsa racer GEE I wonder why... THEORY NO WORKEY....LOL

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 60

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 2:48:56 PM

luv to race

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
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This year I was seriously going to enter my foam wing airplane as my backup and qualify with it to see the speed differences. But there is just no way. I was going pretty good back in the day and could barely turn a high 1:08. Most of the time the plane was about a 1:10 plane. It took my dad a whole week to build the wing, when he does a composite one in about 2 /12 days. He told me that he wouldn't build me any more foam wings. He said "it's too much work"..

So, unless someone provides me a foam wing quickee... I'll be flying the composite version.

BOB DIBLE ? Holy smokes... You did call for me when we won the Dist 1 champ race. Thanks again for that! And I do remember the "runt" quickee that you flew... which unfortuately tried to dent the concrete at Mach 4..

Good to see your still out there, listening to the non-sense we throw up on this forum. I still haven't seen anyone win a pylon race sitting behind their PC..??

Florida is good. Working for Lockheed Martin in a model making shop... cool job.

I still race a lot. I travel everywhere with Fred Burgdorf and Travis Flynn. Travis has become my permanent caller and best friend in racing. I still crash some, just like the old days. The only difference is that it is a bit more funny to pound one now

It's always something stupid that makes them hit the ground...

Randy Bridge
Team JR

(in reply to Freeman Jr.)

Post #: 61

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 3:09:17 PM

Bill Vargas

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Hmmmmm, Bob Dible??? doesn t ring a bell. Must be an old timer

BV
come to the composite side.

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to Freeman Jr.)

Post #: 62

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 3:14:36 PM

T34RACING

Posts: 235
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: SAN JOSE, CA, USA
Status: offline

Yes a oldie....I remember Bob and Jim Kelly in the Formula I days.......and beginning of Giant Scale. Brings back old memories.

_____________________________

KEVIN NORRED,
T-34 TRIANGLE SERIES COORDINATOR

(in reply to Bill Vargas)

Post #: 63

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 3:33:06 PM

HighPlains

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From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Hey Randy,

A very good friend of racing once worked for Lockheed – rest easy Jim.

You might be right about the decline of pylon, maybe some of it is due to the Internet, ‘cause it’s hard to type with glue on your fingers.

I think that the ‘99 Championship race was the last time that you flew under the radar. Travis and you make up a tough nut for other fliers to crack. Kind of like Chip and Tony together, very tough.

The whole point of my posts have been the point that I think that a woodie can be competitive with the composites. I’m not saying that everyone can build one that is competitive, hell, I never could carve a prop worth more than a paint stick. I’d also say that the airplane doesn’t matter as much as the pilot and the caller. But when you get right at the very top of the game, then the little things DO make the difference.

But I like the ability to make changes from plane to plane. That was one of the reasons I never offered any plans or planes. I never had the final design that I didn’t want to change something to try to make better. That is always the challenge in engineering, to say something is good enough. “Better is the enemy of good enough” I noticed that your dad was pretty observant, and the Vortex evolved into one of the best. Maybe I’ll take you up on building a plane to try out one of these days.

Bob Dible

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 64

RE: slightly slower - 6/17/2004 3:55:52 PM

luv to race

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
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I to think that the "woodie" style plane can be competitive. We race with Steve and Jonathan Baker at the Nats each year. Their plane is all foam/wood and even has a standard tail. That thing is fast... But your right, the pilot caller chemistry is huge. Travis and understand each other and we unerstand each others limits.

We still build our fuse out of balsa. For the simple reason of making changes. Dad builds all the planes the same for his customers. But mine consistanly change. Most of it is, moment and nose length, different methods of glass or carbon supporting the inside...stuff like that. And those changes are only made per my quest to find that feel that fits my set up. Last years Nats I think we finally hit..

RB

(in reply to HighPlains)