RE: Castor oil - A final word?

RE: Castor oil - A final word?
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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/14/2004 10:49:11 PM

William Robison

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Jim:

There are also "Black" oxides of iron. If you have ever used phosphoric acid to "Pickle" steel before painting you've seen it.

There are also grey and black oxides of aluminum. Use strong oven cleaner on your engines and leave it a little too long, you will see this also.

Bill.

< Message edited by William Robison -- 6/14/2004 4:50:00 PM >

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/14/2004 11:01:30 PM

3d-aholic

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Aluminum almost instantly oxidizes.....is not as visible and it just continues on very slow after that first nano layer is put down...where as the electrolytic reaction of Iron is much more pronounced once it starts...it actually speeds up....and it looks really bad.

I really don't see RUST as a big model engine problem. Why do people think that it is?

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/14/2004 11:02:34 PM

djlyon

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Simple green will give you a gray oxide if left on too long, alcohol will produce a black oxide on some alloys and a fuzzy crystaline structure on some alloys with a high magnesium content, too long of an exposure to antifreeze in a crock pot at too high a temperature will produce a gray oxide. If I sound like I'm speaking from 'unfortunate' experience, I am.

Denis

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Post #: 178

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/14/2004 11:08:55 PM

William Robison

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3dMike:

I think I am the most pragmatic on the castor question of any contributor to this thread.

I will readily admit that synthetic oils can give equal lubrication and protection in a two stroke engine, so long as everything operates correctly. And I have been known to run 100% synthetic blends in two stroke engines.

But for those lean runs and just plain boiling hot days castor oil has a much greater margin of safety than even the most exotic synthetic oils can provide. This has been proven many times.

I will not run a four stroke on all synthetic oil. Castor is the only oil that I know of giving adequate lubrication to the cam/tappet contact area.

Bill.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/14/2004 11:17:07 PM

djlyon

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I'm not a bearing engineer, I'm an aero engineer, but I don't think stainless steel would be my choice of an alloy for a ball bearing. Simply not the best structural or wear properties for the application. I might use it in certain kinds of environments if I couldn't provide satisfactory protection any other way and I could make the necessary structural trade-offs. If I thought I had an environment I couldn't handle any other way I'd probably go to ceramics. I don't think a model engine is an environment where I can't prevent corrosion with normal care.

Denis

< Message edited by djlyon -- 6/14/2004 6:19:18 PM >

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Post #: 180

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 12:40:53 AM

jessiej

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomstriker

1- ST GS40, 4 years old, only 10 flights and not even broke-in, bearing rusty and noisy.
2- Saito FA.72 new with only 1.5 gallons of break-in, surface rust on bearing races already.
3- LA40, 3 years old, no bearings but lots of rust.
4- same .72 exhaust valve, lots of build-up already, no wonder they stick after a few gallons.

As I wrote in a previous post, If you guys get this with castor I don't know what you are doing wrong. If however, some other substance makes you happy, use it for goodness sake.

jess

(in reply to Boomstriker)

Post #: 181

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 12:48:52 AM

jessiej

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jess,

Anyone who has had any problem with Castor oil, has been running a medicinal (sugar added) grade, or another type of non-degummed Castor. ] DarZelon

I spoke with a Pharmacist friend today who is also a fellow motorcycle and hot rod enthusiast. He told me that if I knew what has passed for "castor oil" for meicinal purposes I would opt for surgery rather than a laxative. He recommends that if you insist on a bean laxative to get it from a speed shop rather than a drugstore.

jess

(in reply to DarZeelon)

Post #: 182

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 2:18:27 AM

djlyon

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"I would opt for surgery rather than a laxative"

Hey I like it, lets cut this s**t out

< Message edited by djlyon -- 6/14/2004 9:20:07 PM >

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Post #: 183

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 3:40:25 AM

jessiej

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Confusus say "final word on castor oil have many syllables."

jess

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Post #: 184

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 4:57:33 AM

proptop

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Hey Bill, remember what I said in that pm before anybody replied?

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 5:23:10 AM

William Robison

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Tom:

quote:

ORIGINAL: proptop
...I took apart my TT .46 pro last night (just the head and back plate) that has 3 cases of powermaster 10% thru it. Looks pretty good inside too! Nice and clean, except for a little varnish on the piston. Just wanted to agree with you again about castor. I was gonna put this in the thread, but you said "last word" and I didn't want to try and take the last word away from ya!...

No, I don't remember. What did you say?

Haw.

Bill.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 1:01:43 PM

Sport_Pilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: William Robison

Jim:

There are also "Black" oxides of iron. If you have ever used phosphoric acid to "Pickle" steel before painting you've seen it.

There are also grey and black oxides of aluminum. Use strong oven cleaner on your engines and leave it a little too long, you will see this also.

Bill.

Black iron oxide will not grow, in fact it will protect the steel from rust, which is why most quality bolts have a black oxide finish. The black form of aluminum oxide is also protective to a lesser degree. It is the white aluminum oxide that you need to worry about.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 2:59:19 PM

yard-dart

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I've been keeping up with all of this since my last post. One thing I want to mention is that when I first got into four strokes, all I heard was "run synthetic". I put my trust in it, and indeed used it in all my four strokes. O.K., here's where the truth comes out. My Saito 1.00 began to make this noise, a noise that only rough bearings can produce. Sure enough, after tearing down the engine, RUSTY BEARINGS. What part of this do some of you not understand. Remember, this engine was run on fuel with all synthetic lubricant. If I had used fuel with some castor, I am willing to put money on it that I would not have had rusty bearings. I'm not saying that the bearings would have never gone out, but I am saying that I don't think that they would have gone out because of rust. Why do I feel this way? Because, out of all of my other engines that have been torn down, ones that have been run with blended fuel, I have never had a rusty bearing, or any rust problem for that matter.

These remarks are unbiased, and simply the facts. Some may, or may not, have encountered the same as I. Run whatever you like, but do not say that engines will not rust when pure synthetic oil is used. Yours may not have, but mine has!

John

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Post #: 188

RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 3:42:07 PM

Boomstriker

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I don't argue that Castor offers good protection from lean runs. But I've never had an engine damaged from a lean run, whether it had a diet of Castor it's entire life, synthetic it's life, or broke-in on Castor and running on synthetic.

My problem is rusty bearings on Castor engines that don't get run very often. I wish I had the time to fly all of them every other week to keep them lubed. Maybe those of you that remove your engines and put them in moth-balls for the winter are the ones that don't have rust issues.

I'm not sure what you guys are seeing in the pics, but there is no oxidation or corrosion on the aluminum in any of my engines. Oxidation is white and powdery in dry, and pasty in a moist environment with lots of pitting in the aluminum. These are clean and shiny with no pits at all.
Some of you state that this brown crud is the Castor build-up that protects the metal, but no one can explain why the ferrous crank and bearings are loaded, yet the all the aluminum, including the rod end is spotless.
Does the Castor have a preference as to what it sticks to?
If the build-up IS the protection, how does it stick to the spinning balls and races that need the most protection?
Because of the build-up on the hot muffler, some may say the temperature of the surface has a lot to do with what the Castor 'cooks' to. I would have to argue that with the fuel and air flow through it, the crank only gets warm, and certainly not any hotter than the rod.
Maybe the Castor thats 'cooked' on the 600* aluminum muffler is different from what 'sticks' to the 180* steel crank?

Others say that this metal would be shiny, smooth and like-new after being cleaned. I don't argue that the majority is build-up from Castor, but when it is cleaned away, my metal is not clean and shiny, it's dull, lightly pitted and full of surface rust. Only some work on a belt sander would get the crank looking like new, or like the first pic of the old synthetic engine.
The point is, by what I see when I pop the cover, regardless of what color it is, I'm convinced that rust is the cause of my many noisy bearing over the years.

I have a large hanger and don't have the time to remove, strip, soak, clean, oil and bag each engine every year. Hell, most of the time, I don't have time to clean the planes or get some after-run in the things at the end of the day. And if I don't, it's forgotten by the next week.

So far, the synthetic seems to be protecting from rust much better with my bad maintenance habits. If I have a melt-down while using it, I'll post it, but with the lean runs I've had so far, I can't complain 'cause it seems to be protecting there too.

Kirk

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 3:54:12 PM

Boomstriker

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John,
How old was that engine and what fuel?
If you still have it, show some pics of the rusty bearings and crank.
Not saying I don't believe you, I'd just like to see as a comparison to all of mine that're spotless and stored in the humid garage.

(in reply to yard-dart)

Post #: 190