RE: Castor oil - The Longest Word?  
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RE: Castor oil - The Longest Word? - 6/15/2004 6:56:32 PM   
3d-aholic



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quote:

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

quote:

ORIGINAL: John: How long did you let your engine sit between runs and how did you store the engine?



The first time I noticed the engine making a weird noise was about a month ago. Before then, it had been about 2 months since it had been ran, maybe not even that long.


Oh gheeze...I just noticed your from LA. lol I can remember staying in a hotel on the LA, and when I got up at 9:00am, I didn't have to use water to take a shower, I was already wet, and the curtains on the hotel room where soaked. 110% humidity!! No wonder they are rusting. 2 months there would be like washing your bearings weekly in a tub of water. You would need to take extra care down there. I think that LA is the most humid place on earth!

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 7:29:24 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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ORIGINAL: Steve Collins

How does anyone know what type of synthetic oil is used in glow fuel? I have never known a glow fuel manufacturer to give that information out.


The two most common synthetic oil companies, maybe the only two, are Klotz and Union Carbide. For I know Klotz contracts Union Carbide to make theirs. Anyway here is some info on the synthetic oils sold under the Union Carbide brand name UCON.

http://www.dow.com/polyglycols/ucon/products/base.htm

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 7:38:21 PM   
3d-aholic



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Heres the MSDS for Ricinus Oil/Castor Oil.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c1500.htm

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 7:42:57 PM   
3d-aholic



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75-H Fluids Series products are water soluble at temperatures below 75°C

Ok, well that would be not good at all for preventing rust. Looking at the chemical structure of both of these oils...Gives a lot more credibility to the use of AfterRun than I ever imagined. I would not be using any of these oils as a rust inhibitor.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 9:16:13 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Actually being water solubale is good, as long as the percentage of water is low. What can be bad is when beads of water is trapped below the oil. The beads then get trapped against the metal. If the oils is water solubale then the water disperses through the oil and thus is too thin to be a good electrolyte.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 9:26:52 PM   
3d-aholic



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How does droplets of water get trapped under a layer of oil in a model airplane engine? A boat engine maybe....

I'm sure there is water vapor created from the act of combustion....and that amount is probably more than is in the fuel in the first place.

Any oil that is water soluable is going to have a stronger affinity and be more hydroscopic. All of those glycol groups or acetic groups that help make them soluable in Methanol/water....give these oils less than the best protection for metal and give them an affinity for water.

I am still doubtful that any metal would ever rust immersed in 99% of any of these oils. However, I'm going to start becoming more religious with my Afterrun oil I think.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 9:35:20 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

How does droplets of water get trapped under a layer of oil in a model airplane engine?


Water is heavier than oil, any condesation will go to the bottom and gets trapped between the oil and the metal, there should be a film of oil remaining, but eventually it disolves or gets displaced by the water.

To be hygroscopic means that it asorbs water not attract it. There will be the same amount of water with or without the methanol and oil.

< Message edited by Sport_Pilot -- 6/15/2004 4:37:47 PM >

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 9:47:12 PM   
William Robison



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One of the characteristics of Dexron ATF is its being a "Moisture Displacing Lubricant." This means that when you use it as after run oil, and slobber it into the engine, then give it a spin with the starter the ATF coats everything, and lifts any moisture off the metal parts. It also tends to decrease the amount of accumulated castor oil gum.

Bill.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/15/2004 10:06:39 PM   
3d-aholic



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Water is heavier than oil, any condesation will go to the bottom and gets trapped between the oil and the metal, there should be a film of oil remaining, but eventually it disolves or gets displaced by the water.

__
Hmm, well I think that neglets the dipole moment and other chemistry of water. You are describing water being dropped into a huge vat of oil.

On the molecular level I would think the affinity of oil on steel is much more significant than waters density which at the concentrations we are talking about would be virtually soluable in anything.

Take a drop of water on a piece of steel and swirl around with your finger. Now do the same experiment, but swirl a drop of oil with your finger. You will notice a significant difference on how the water reacts to the metal surface compared to the oil. The water will bead and be phoebic to the metal....the oil will not.

The soluability of water in these oils is much more significant that I first realized....but they have been created to be soluable in Methanol so it makes sense. Take John in LA....with his 110% humidity, virtually all of the water vapor in the air that is available is going to be solvated into that synthethic oil in his crankshaft...no wonder he gets rust in 2 months. The electrolysis of water on metal --- which we call RUST only requires that water be there. Whether it is solvated in the synth oil or trapped seems immaterial to me on the fact the molecules are there....

I take all my threads back....I will not be relying on any of these oils to protect steel from electrolysis... I've got 3 unusued containers of AfterRun oil that I plan on using religiously.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 5:07:32 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

Take a drop of water on a piece of steel and swirl around with your finger. Now do the same experiment, but swirl a drop of oil with your finger. You will notice a significant difference on how the water reacts to the metal surface compared to the oil. The water will bead and be phoebic to the metal....the oil will not.


This is quite true, which is why I said there is a film of oil left on the metal. If it is a small amount of water the water will be a simi spherical bead and only a small amount will seem to be in contact, but actually a film of oil will seperate the two. But water is the universal solvent, with enough time the film of oil will slowly disolve in the water.

I have worked with water treatment of large medium pressure boilers. To prevent the bare steel from rusting from contact with bare steel there is two major things you can do, decrease the oxygen in the water or make the water non conductive. The later is not practible in a boiler but does work in a closed system. Water itself is non conductive, only impurities such as salt or acid make it so, it is possible to distill water, or use softeners to remove minerals, and this reduces corrosion alone. Oil, at least most oils do not conduct electricity so a small amount of water should not cause any harm, but if little oil is in the case such as may be the case with two strokes, then it may not take that much, especially on parts with a thin coating.

Another factor that is unknown to me, how is the oil water mixture differant than oil alone? Does it thicken as does mineral oil when agitated by the crankcase and the oil water mixture settles as sludge on the bottom of the pan and heads? Or does the mixture thin out and drain off the parts?

I understand that castor is only partially solvent with water, may explain why some have good luck with castor and others have good luck with synthetic. Synthetic with corrosion inhibitors may be better with smaller amounts of water which mix into the oil, but castor clings better and does not mix well so it does better with larger quantities of water. It may also explain why Mr. Wagner of Model Aviation can mix 20% water into his fuel, but DownUnder can only mix a few percent before the oil seperates. That was only one series of synthetic oil that Union Carbide said was water solubale, others may not or be partially solubale.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 5:19:56 AM   
Kemo



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard39

Ah, maybe he made a mistake? But I for one will not cast the first stone.... for I live in a glass house... take care guys ... be nice...



I live in a house made of lexan... so i still say synthetics are great!

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 5:37:58 AM   
William Robison



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Cars:

You are right. Synthetics are great. Castor oil is great. You ever hear of "Synergy?" Where the combination is greater than the sum of its parts? In a modern glow engine the mix of castor and synthetic oil is better than either one alone.

Bill.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 7:18:18 AM   
DarZeelon



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William,

I cannot agree more.
Hence the combo I use; 20% oil, of which 8.5-11% (of the fuel) is degummed/first press Castor oil.

I never have to disassemble my engines, since they never wear out (unless crash damage sets in...) in normal.

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 4:03:58 PM   
ZAGNUT



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synergy shmynergy the only advantage i see in using a blend of synth/castor is less mess to clean off the plane. thanks but no thanks, i'll continue using all castor.


dave

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RE: Castor oil - A final word? - 6/16/2004 4:07:25 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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LOL Zagnut has a point.

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