Castor oil - A final word? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums] >> Glow Engines



Message

William Robison -> Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 6:30:41 PM)

All:

From Clarence Lee, engine clinic column, page 72, in the July 2004 issue of RCM:
quote:

Contrary to what some of the synthetic oil manufacturers would have you believe, a synthetic oil has yet to be produced that can equal castor oil for high temperature or lean run protection. Hence, many of the synthetic oils have a small amount of castor or other high temperature additives added. Most of your synthetic oils have a flash point in the 450F range which is the point where the oil vapors ignite and go up in smoke. Klotz synthetic has one of the highest flash points of 510F. Castor, on the other hand, has a flash point of 535F, and upon burning, leaves a varnish or glaze that further protects the moving parts. This is something the synthetics do not do and just adding more synthetic oil will not be a substitute for the benefits of castor, especially on those lean metal melting runs fellows oftentimes subject their engines to.

I couldn't say ti any better, although I've tried many times right here on RCU.

Bill.



ZAGNUT -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 9:44:25 PM)

i guess he knows his oils.....too bad he don't know how to calculate compression ratio. don't remember the issue# but he basically said to take the cylinder volume plus the combustion chamber volume and divide this by the combustion chamber volume.....???? guess it means that the compression ratios he lists in his reviews are worthless[:o]



dave



Richard39 -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 9:53:50 PM)

Ah, maybe he made a mistake? But I for one will not cast the first stone.... for I live in a glass house... take care guys ... be nice...



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 9:56:24 PM)

Dave:

When you figure compression ratio using the swept volume of the cylinder you're getting the real number, as used by engineers for many years. And as still used by Clarence Lee.

In a two stroke, it is becoming the fashion to figure c/r using the remaining swept volume from the point of exhaust port closure. But it's still meaningless if you don't know the port timings, the exhaust resonance for tuning, what fuel mixis to be used, the rpm range, and several more little items that affect the engine run.

C/R by itself really doesn't mean a lot. Even on a four stroke engine the inlet valve normally stays oopen past BDC, so should we start rating the 4s engines from the point of inlet closing lag?

Bill.



ZAGNUT -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 10:28:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Robison

C/R by itself really doesn't mean a lot.


true, but it is a useful measurement (along with all the others) when comparing different engines. but if those different engines are reviewed by different people using different methods then measurements are all but useless. i prefer dave gierke's reviews that include both geometric and effective C/Rs.

maybe what mr. lee wrote was a simple mistake...but i just felt like having a bit of fun


dave



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/29/2004 11:08:41 PM)

Dave:

You just have to be sure you're comparing apples with apples. It's just plain hard to compare an Apple Mac with a real computer.

Speaking of which, have you seen the latest Mac? The iPot?

Haw.

(You said you wanted a little fun.)

Bill.



Don M. -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 12:51:25 AM)

Bill, who died and made Clarence Lee the Boss ??????



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 2:07:09 AM)

Don:

I don't know that anyone died and made Lee the "Boss," but he has enough experience and design history (one of his deigns is still being produced) to make me listen to him.

And the temperature numbers aren't dependent on anyone being boss, they're fact, not opinion.

Besides, he agrees with me and that automatically makes him an expert.

Haw.

Bill.



Don M. -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 2:23:30 AM)

Just trying to rattle you old sock, you know my views on castor oil (I think) !!!!!! To me it's like carrying 2 spare tires instead of one, I can live with the few times I have 2 flats and save the hassles (mess) of carrying the extra spare (using castor).



blvdbuzzard -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 2:45:12 AM)

The one thing I have found that castor doeas that the synthetic oils do not, is if you run them and leave them without after run oil for a long time, the castor creates a varnish that protects the insides of the engine. One of my heilcopter engines that I ran only full synthetic oils in got wasted from setting on the shelf for a while. It was rusted like I put it in salt water. Never had that happen with all castor oils.

Dru.

P.S. I have been around long enough to remember when fuels only had cator.



Kmot -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 2:59:10 AM)

Castor oil is just a conspiracy of a bunch of old geezers trying to give everyone else the runs! Oh wait.... be right back! [:)]



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 3:14:12 AM)

TomK:

Good one.

Bill.



martyg -> Castor Oil - Bulk Suppliers? (5/30/2004 3:19:25 AM)

What are the industrial uses for Castor oil? I need to find a supplier in gallon quantities to feed my Moki.
What types of supply houses would likely carry this stuff over the counter?
I'm in the big city (DFW) so everything is close by - Just need to know where to look, who to ask.

My best option right now is $26/gal for Sig castor at the hobby shop.
Not keen on paying shipping on 30lb boxes if I can avoid it.
Not keen on paying $8 for a Pint of Klotz Benol either.

Any suggestions?



blw -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 3:23:39 AM)

Bill,

You may know engines, but you don't know much about computers judging your remarks about them.



downunder -> RE: Castor Oil - Bulk Suppliers? (5/30/2004 3:38:25 AM)

Hmmm...what else can I say except I agree with both Clarence Lee and Bill on both the castor and compression issues???

Oh OK...I'll add one more thing then. Flash point is where the vapours at the surface of the oil ignite and go out until more vapour is formed. Fire point is when the oil is hot enough to have sustained burning until it's all gone. For synthetics this is about 20F hotter than its flash point but castor has a fire point of about 850F. So a droplet of synthetic will reach it's fire point very quickly and burn away while a droplet of castor may never reach its fire point.



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 3:44:36 AM)

Barry:

My aversion to the Mac line goes all the way back to the Lisa. Remember that one?

I first worked with EDPM in 1956 on the 400 series IBMs, which we upgraded to a 701, and more upgrades came later. Then I discovered minis, my first (literally) home computer was a Litton ABS 1241 in 1972. The size of three office desks, when I switched it on the lights in the house would dim momentarily. Replaced that one with a PDP-8, later went to the PDP-11 machines. Last DEC was an LSI-11/780.

Then the micros. Had an Apple II and an Apple II+, but when I discovered CP/M the kids got free access to the Apples. And I never have had any regrets about staying on the "Intel" side since.

I still look at the Macs now and then, now that Jobs is back and OSX having Unix as the core I might be tempted. But I can fire my Intel box up with Linux if I get too homesick for the old minis, I just can't see limiting myself to the Macs. No matter what you can do there, there is software to do the same thing on an Intel box, and it is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper, if not actually free.

My comments on computers are based on experience, sir, a lot of it.

But the "iPot" was supposed to be a joke, not something to be taken seriously.

Bill.



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 3:48:49 AM)

Marty:

Believe it or not, castor oil is used in commercial quantities by bakeries. If you find a cooking supply house you can buy "Baker's AA" in five gallon cans.

Bill.



MikeL -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 4:05:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Robison

My comments on computers are based on experience, sir, a lot of it.


And absolutely none with the OS you love to hate. You're very fast and free with your comments made out of useless presumptions, and I often wonder just how far that little habit extends into other subjects you comment on.



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 4:15:51 AM)

Mike:

Good to see you back. And I do remember you as an Apple fan.

But you are wrong about the OS experience also. I currently have four of them. And I'm waiting for the 46 FX to peel.

And yes, it's possible that it never will peel. But a lot of them have.

Bill.



jessiej -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 4:28:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeL

quote:

ORIGINAL: William Robison

My comments on computers are based on experience, sir, a lot of it.


And absolutely none with the OS you love to hate. You're very fast and free with your comments made out of useless presumptions, and I often wonder just how far that little habit extends into other subjects you comment on.



What provokes such personal attacks? Insecurity? Immaturity? Envy? Senility?

These forums are normally conducted in a courteous manner as they should be, there being no excuse to behave otherwise. Once I thought that the exceptions were all from our younger fellows, but it appears that indeed many rude posts are from those that are old enough to know better.[:o]

Inquiring minds want to know.

jess



Kmot -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 4:36:20 AM)

It's called "PC Envy" :D



MikeL -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 5:47:35 AM)

You fellows aren't familiar enough with Bill and I. :)

That's hardly a personal attack. It is something to consider, however. Bill and I both have a very wide variety of computer experiences, and I've been trying to get him to try a Mac for quite a while. When it comes right down to it, a person simply shouldn't use their many years of avoiding a product as a qualifier for disliking said product. If Bill had even 15 minutes of experience with a modern Mac his opinion would have merit, but he does not.

To bring this back around full-circle, Bill, how often have you used synthetic oils? I usually use a castor-synth blend, but for certain applications I much prefer full synthetic. Rather like computers, a person should use the best tool for the job. :D



Flyboy Dave -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 6:41:32 AM)

Hi Mike....your last line was the best....[sm=thumbup.gif]

I use a blend in all my fuels, to include 3 ozs. castor dumped into the 20/20
PowerMaster YS fuel for break-in. In an all out racing engine like a Nelson, I
would probably use straight castor. In a 4 stroke....20% synthetic only oil
can be satisfactory.....mainly due to the quantity of the oil.

I'm going to stay out of the oil debates from this time forth. I know what works
and what doesn't. If someone asks me what I would run in a certain instance, I
will tell them. But quite frankly, whatever "Joe" wants to run in his engine is
fine by me.

The only thing that really gripes my butt....is the fantasyland story telling about
the "evils of castor" from the synthetic oil salesmen....they should be ashamed.

FBD. [:D]



DarZeelon -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 6:59:03 AM)

Bill,

I always recommend using only DEGUMMED Castor oil and to always use Castor oil (unless it is a YS).

The three brands I know (?) to be degummed are Klotz BeNOL (which I use), Sig degummed and Morgan's CleanCastor.
I suppose the Castor oil used to produce Model Technics (UK) fuels is also not gummy, since it keeps my engines pretty clean.

I am totally unsure about Bakers AA brand.

Can you be sure the bakery type Castor oil is good?

My past home brew experience with other Castor oils is a very gummy one. Engines will be stuck solid after only two weeks and the whole engine is brown and gummed on the outside. So much so that cooling is impaired.

Brian (Downunder), made another very strong case supporting Castor oil. Note it!



William Robison -> RE: Castor oil - A final word? (5/30/2004 7:38:16 AM)

Mike:

I keep two fuels on hand. Both from Morgan's.

Omega 15% is my standard flog it around the patch everyday fuel. It is, as you know, a synthetic/castor blend. My 4s engines get nothing else, and most of the 2s engines get it also.

Way back in prehistoric ages I'd run 25% fuel. That was 25% methanol. The nitro was right at 65%, and 10% polyoxide oil. The Poly was a synthetic supplied by Wakefield Oil, and with the fuel rate in the speed planes 10% oil was enough. There was a small amount of amyl acetate added to ensure the fuel would stay mixed, and another small amount was propylene oxide to make it burn.With this fuel and minor variations my gang was running consistently 95% of the record, and we did get some records too. But woe be unto you and your engine if you screwed up when you needled it. A lean run meant a destroyed engine. No exceptions. If it got in the air and started going "Rraap Rraap..." you bellied the plane in, if you got it stopped soon enough you might save the prop drive washer and the mounting bolts. Not quite that bad, but usually the piston crown would melt and sag, even if you didn't blow a hole through it.

All this is leading up to my number two fuel. Cool Power, 25% nitro. That's what my K&B pumper engines get, to have that bit of extra power. The Coxes get the CP also, for the nitro content, but I add some castor for their iron pistons and plain bearing cranks.

Back to the argument. I run a lot of K&B engines, the ones on Omega almost never need any service, much less replacement parts. The K&B pumpers, all parts interchangeable except the backplate pump and the big bore carb, running on the synthetic oil only Cool Power, regularly need a ring, a little less often a set of bearings, and sometimes even a rod or a piston.

Granted I run them harder, but they're not running enough harder to make as much difference as there is in the wear.

I still have a whale of a parts stock for the K&B engines, so I'm not hurting. But when the stock gets a bit further down the 25% fuel will be a castor blend too.

So maybe my experience is atypical, but it has made a castor apostle of me.

On the Mac. Maybe if I spent your 15 minutes on one I would have a higher opinion of it, but I really don't think you could sell it to me over the Intel box. Just one point in the hardware. You have a mouse with one button on top. Just what Doug Englebart started with back in 1962 or so. Does it not seem reasonable to assume more can be done when you have a mouse with three buttons and a scroll wheel? Of course you have to remember which button to push. Maybe that's it. Mac users don't have to remember such things. Takes a smarter person to run an Intel box.

Haw.

And your post #18 did feel like a slam...

Bill.



Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10   next >   >>  

Valid CSS!




SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.
0.2969971