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Pizza Box Foil - 9/15/2002 7:52 PM

kevin4hsrcm

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I started today on my modified version of the PBF. It was raining all day today here so I took 2mm coroplast, formed in half, forming a leading edge using a heat gun and a dowel to form an airfoil. I built a spar out of 1/4" SQ. balsa and glued in shear webs between the 1/4" SQ. spars (2-1/2" tall). I am putting in a short foam block inside the center of the coroplast for tie in of the engine mount. I am planning on putting in a 4mm section of coroplast for a profile style fuse with an oversized rudder.

I am debating between standard servos, or using some HiTec 225 mini servos I have laying around. I am going to put a Webra 32 on it, probably with header and moose can set-up on it. Let me know about you experience with mini servos in your PBFs.
Thanks!
Kevin

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/15/2002 8:54 PM

ty williams

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has any body ever used foam insulation board before i thought i might give it a try to see how it would stand up any ideals thanx

< Message edited by ty williams -- Sep 15 2002 11:27PM >

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dave or foamguy help?????????? - 9/16/2002 4:31 AM

ty williams

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need to know what size motor to use i have an asp.40 with a 10x6 prop or a magnum .52 4 stroke with standard raido gear to be used on a an 24x24 pbf pls any ideals would help thank you

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/16/2002 8:26 AM

Dave McDonald

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Ty,
In my opinion, neither of those engines will work well on a 24x24 PBF. They are simply too heavy.

The 24x24 size PBFs fly best with lightweight engines in the 25, 32, and bushing 40 class. The flight performance really starts to suffer once the weight goes over 2.5 pounds.

If you are going to use an ASP 40 or the Mag 52, I would suggest using at least a 30x30 wing. Just guessing here, but I would think that you could enlarge the PBF to a 30x30 size if you used 6mm coroplast.

Since these squareplanes are so cheap and easy to build, I think you should build two of them, and put the ASP 40 in one, and the Mag 52 in the other. Then let us know which one flys best.

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/16/2002 9:34 AM

roadhor

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Dave ; Do you still have a Norvel 25 on one of your PBF's ? I tried an APC 10X3 prop the other day & it really helps make hovering the thing a lot easier. I'm still having a ball with mine but have went through several sets of gears on my HS-81's, think I'll switch to bigger servos. What do you think?

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my pbf - 9/16/2002 10:23 AM

Pinhead159

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here is a pic of my pbf w/ webra .32
sign shop gave me 3 sheets of 4'x2' so i ahve enough for some backup planes lol

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/16/2002 11:22 AM

Dave McDonald

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Hi roadhor!
Yep, still flying the Norvel 25 on PBF#1 and I love it! In fact, it's proven to be one of my favorite engines for a PBF.

I haven't tried an APC 10x3 yet. I'll see if the local hobby dealer has one.

I've been using the Kavan 9x4 Softprop on the Norvel 25 primarily because of it's durability. As the prop tips get damaged, you can trim them off and keep on flying until the prop gets down to about 7" in diameter before the flight performance really starts to suffer. The Norvel 25 doesn't seem to mind as the prop gets shorter and shorter....it just spins it faster and faster.

Kevin,
I flew PBF#1 with Futaba S-133 servos for about 5 months with no problems with an HB 15, OS 25 bushing, Webra 32, and Norvel 25. About a month ago I had to change out the S-133 elevon servos after one of them developed a centering problem, and I didn't have another spare S-133 to replace it.

The Hitec 225 has twice the torque of the Futaba S-133, so you shouldn't have any problems at all.

< Message edited by Dave McDonald -- Sep 16 2002 6:40AM >

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/16/2002 5:26 PM

ifly2

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I have 2 engines that I could use.
a K&B 40 that seems to go from no throttle to full throttle an about 1/2 open.
or
a TT Pro 46.. Runs GREAT... but is it too heavy?

Les

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/21/2002 10:40 PM

Cody-RCU

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Well, I've started my bigger PBF. It's been all cut out now from 3/16 coro, and is 28x28". Should be fun. I've just gotta get some wood for motor mounts and other what-nots, and it'll be in the air. By the way, to stiffen the leading edge, I'll probably use 1/8 music wire, cause it's strong, cheap, and easy to find. Just slide it down the flute.

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Pics of my PBF's - 9/22/2002 6:05 AM

wingspan99

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Hi guys,
Here's a pic of my first PBF, a 26"x26" 4mm Coroplast wing with 1/4" alum channel LE and landing gears that can take the timber landing and bounce it back into a hover. It's got an OS 32SX for power, and is 3lbs 2oz. This is with 3 standard servos, one mini for throttle and a 1600mah Nimh battery for power. A 6oz tank is a bit large as well, I'd like to use a 4oz.
-Tom

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Pic of my second electric PBF - 9/22/2002 6:16 AM

wingspan99

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This is my second PBF, it uses the GWS gear from my Pico stick. Three Naro servos, and the ICS50 speed control. It's 16"x16" with landing gears and steerable tailwheel. I have been running it with a 300mah nicad 8 cell pack which is way too heavy for it. I have a 300mah nimh 8 cell pack on the way which ought to pull it much better. It is still a lot of fun to race up and down the street. With the fresh battery it climbs up to 20' once then I'm limited to hops. It's made of 1/4" extruded foam insulation with a 1/4" balsa leading edge, a 1/4" balsa spine and hardwood motor mount up front. I cut a 1/2" foam sheet in half with a hot wire guided on the tops of two 1/4" dowels one each side of a 16"x 16" foam square. It weighs 6.5oz with no battery, 10.5 oz with the 300mah nicad pack. It will be only 8.5 oz with the 150-size 300mah nimh pack. I think it will be ok for slow flight but for a true hover I'll probably need 280-size power. It flies just like the glow PBF in terms of aileron and elev authority. -Tom

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Pic of glow and elec PBF together - 9/22/2002 6:20 AM

wingspan99

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Here's a pic of both PBF's, the 26"x26" glow version and the 16"x16" electric version.
I've also completed a 36" disc from 1/2" extruded foam, with a YS 45 for power. It's only 4lbs. I forgot to take a picture of it today but I'll get one tomorrow. The foam already had a 7mil layer of plastic on it so I only needed to seal the hinges and edges with packing tape.
-Tom

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Landing gear mounting - 9/22/2002 6:30 AM

wingspan99

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Here's a closeup of my landing gear mounting on my 26"x26" Coroplast PBF. I made a slit in the front of the front cell of the Coroplast and drilled into the Coroplast about 2.5" so the "torsion arm" of the landing gear could go deep into the coro. At the edge of the aluminum channel I cut a slot for the gear to protrude from. I have not had any trouble with it breaking through the top of the coro in normal use. I wedged 3/32" balsa into the channel next to the 4mm coro and although I have tried, I cannot get the coro back out. I think if I ever have to get it out I will have to cut the leading edge off and dig it all out with a knife, it's that tight in there. The wide gear stance makes it look freaky, but it is super stable except at very very slow taxi speed where one wheel can drag a wingtip when it hits a high or low spot in the grass runway.
I found out the hard way that a split S from 50' at low airspeed requires about 60' or a burst of power over the elevators to complete it. That crease on the left wingtip occured when it folded the aluminum channel up and back. I put an adjustable wrench on the channel and straightened it.
-Tom

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/22/2002 7:08 AM

Dave McDonald

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ifly2,
The K&B 40 and the TT Pro 46 are really too heavy for a 24x24 PBF. The flight performance really starts to suffer once you go over 2.5 pounds. I'd suggest reading the through this thread and past Pizza Box threads for info about building a square flying wing large enough to handle those engines. You can easily access those threads from my PBF web page. Or get yourself a 25, 32, or bushing 40 size engine and build a 24x24 PBF.

Tom,
Great photos, and really good information!!!

Have you made any progress on your giant PBF yet?

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Not Exactly a PBF - 9/22/2002 7:35 AM

kevin4hsrcm

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This is not exactly a PBF, though it was inspired by them. I call it a Pizza Box Foil instead.
It has 3 std. servos and a Hitec 225 for the throttle. I have a Webra 32 on it with a 700 mH batt. pack.

Since it was raining today, the club was having a War Bird Fly-in (between the rain showers - I guess), I started designing a balsa version. Eventually, I will post some scratch builder plans that can be downloaded FREE off of my website. I am designing it for optional landing gear to be flown with a 25 to 32 initially.

I did some mofications to it today. You can check-out the development of it under the Thread entitled: Pizza Box Foil (PB Foil) I will post a new flight report after I fly it again.
Kevin

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/22/2002 9:20 AM

Dave McDonald

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Kevin,
Your Pizza Box Foil looks good! Can't wait to hear how it flys with your latest modifications!

FYI, other than both being a flying wing, my DaWing combat design isn't even close to your Pizza Box Foil, despite some comments in the other thread. And although your PB Foil may have been inspired by a PBF, they are obviously different designs.......very different designs. Please don't let those comments intimidate your PB Foil experiments at all!

The PB Foil is actually more similar to Foamguy's original Flying Pizza Box, which used two sheets of 2mm coroplast to make an airfoil. But the way I see it, Foamguy never posted enough information to duplicate his Flying Pizza Box, so you're entering unexplored territory. Please keep experimenting with your PB Foil!!!

After seeing your PB Foil, I may have to try modifying a DaWing into a square shape just to see how (if?) it would fly. You've got me curious to see if a square rigid wing with an airfoil will adversely affect the stability during super slow flight compared to the flat winged PBF.

Please keep us posted about your PB Foil project!
(Hey, don't those warbird pilots realize that PB Foil flight research is far more important that watching a well proven 50 year old design fly continuous left hand circles?)

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Giant PBF - 9/22/2002 3:37 PM

wingspan99

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Hi Dave,
I haven't decided whether to build a giant disk or a giant PBF. When I fly my 36" disk I'll compare the two planforms. Unless the disk flies a LOT better, it will be a giant PBF. The PBF is so much more interesting, everybody calls the disk an old Rountuit, but they don't know what to make of the PBF. I'm going flying with my PBF today, and with the usual crowd on Sunday morning it should be fun! Maybe I'll take bets first on whether it will fly. -Tom

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PBF motor - 9/22/2002 6:25 PM

ifly2

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Thanks Dave,

I have located a Magnum 28, and a 32. I'll try the 28.

Les

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Hey Dave! - 9/22/2002 7:24 PM

kevin4hsrcm

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I really loved your comment on the Warbirds! I got a real good laugh out of it and I agree!

Unfortantely, they didn't agree. They tried to discourge me from flying it, not knowing me. I then informed them that I was an officer of this club, and they let me be. I broke out my Aeron Fun-Fly after the first test flight (which was wild and looked out of control) of the PB Foil and hovered it all the way down the runway from a hand launch. Nobody looked at me strange after that!

As you know Dave, I design allot of Fun-Flys. I am not discourged easily, to say the least. I have failed numerous times in the past. This is what makes us stronger and wiser

I didn't take to heart when one individual stated that the PB Foil was like the DaWing. I realize that there all kinds of people on this forum with a wide variety of experience and knowledge.

I agree with your statement that the PB Foil and the PBF are entirely different, though as you know I was inspired by the PBF and I like to give credit where credit is due.
The PB Foil is pretty stable at low speeds in comparison to the PBF (I would think). Now with the end caps installed, I believe that it will be even better. With the end caps, at low speeds, it wiggle a little like a falling leaf manuver. The wing tips would drop about an 1" on each side (just a guess).

I've got the foil designed and a good start on the plans for the balsa version. I hope to modify it after the glow version is done to accommodate an electric too to play with one in the yard too

I am going to try the PB Foil with the end caps today, between the rain. I'll let everyone know how I make out.
Kevin

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/22/2002 8:41 PM

Tattoo

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I love the way this is progressing! Here's the way the Spad version is going which is sort of going back to FoamGuys original design. This has 4mm coro on the bottom, 2mm top, and a gutterpipe fuselage with two spars. Designed by Craig, there is more on it here: http://rcamericaonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=191

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Tattoo - Flown Yet? - 9/22/2002 8:52 PM

kevin4hsrcm

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Have you flown it yet? If so, do you notice any issues with its flight characteristics that you can contribute to the open ends of the foil?
Kevin

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/22/2002 10:02 PM

Tattoo

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It's not mine, so I can't give a flight report, but this is C & P'ed from the Spad Forum from Craig:

quote:

Only had enough time for a tank of fuel but no bad habits. Seems like I have twist built into the wing as it needed a few clicks of left aileron...sure enough...will attempt to heat and twist them out before next flight. Rolls like a bandit, loops OK, slow flight OK, inverted OK, only bad habit is it seems to wag at medium speed, and more noticeably in a decending turn and on final...going to fill in the open wing tips...bet that's why. Did about three landings...looks like it is coming in for a carrier landing...about 30 degrees nose high, 25% throttle and last second flair...greeaasser!
Bet you can't guess what those white square cups are screwed to the fuel box?
Out of time...gotta run. Hope to have air shots, wing tips closed and yes, stickers in the next few days.
Craig

I'm hoping to have some time soon to experimant myself on this design, I have a GP .42 and flight pack just waiting for the time

...it does sound like its a concensus that the wingtips need to be closed up!

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Build your own PBF (Pizza Box Flyer, Flying Pizza Box) - 9/23/2002 5:40 AM

Tattoo

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Here's some more on it:
http://www.rccombat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7605&FORUM_ID=22&CAT_ID=12&Topic_Title=It%27s+PIZZA+TIME%21%21%21&Forum_Title=Simple+Plastic+Airplane+Designs+%28SPAD%29

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PB Foil Flight Report Update - 9/23/2002 6:16 AM

kevin4hsrcm

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I have mixed feelings. Tattoo - tell your buddy Criag that I am having the same problems / issues with mine. Coming in at slow speeds, mine rocks as well. I almost believe that it is a characteristic of a low speed stall. When I put a slight amount of rudder in with opposite alieron, it takes this rocking out. It also has a high speed stall characteristic. It darts, and the elevons are real sluggish to respond. There is obviously air turbulance over the elevons that causes this. Installation of the end caps sure did help its flight characteristics, though I still am not happy /impressed. Tattoo, tell your buddy Criag to try a Fun-Fly, a real one. This thing is great for a laugh, but it sure as hell not a good Fun-Fly. My stds maybe different, but I not impressed so far, except for a laugh. Hovering is not all that great. I am still going to finish designing the balsa version and build a proto-type. This way I can ensure that the leading edge is more to my liking, and it comes out a full semitrical foil, unlike my first attempt with the coroplast and a heat gun.
I also cartwheeled it today and broke the engine mount. I knew this would be the week point. Well I confirmed it today.

Oh well! I'll try something else.
Kevin

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Stability? - 9/23/2002 7:31 AM

Dave McDonald

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kevin4hsrcm
The PB Foil is pretty stable at low speeds in comparison to the PBF (I would think).

[/QUOTE]

"I would think"????
Does this mean you haven't tried a stock PBF with a flat wing?

Personally, I've never flown any other plane that was as stable as a PBF in high alpha flight. Perhaps the lack of an airfoil is what makes it so stable? I really don't know......which is why I'm very curious to hear how your PB Foil performs at super slow speeds.

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