Posts: 281
Joined: 1/22/2002 From: Bend,
OR, USA Status: offline
I've only designed one plane before (original Taco) and it was a very bare bones drawing. I used Autocad 2000 for that if i recall correctly.
I'm planning on doing another one soon, just trying to figure out what i want (leaning toward classicly styled aerobatic biplane). I think this time around i'm going to try to model it in 3D as well as just making plan drawings. I'll be using Inventor 8 and autocad 2004. I used Profili for airfoil and didn't use anything for balance or overall design.
I've been giving some thought to a FAQ for just this topic. But I'm not really sure what form it should take. Certainly download links or quotes from sources but I'd like it to be more definitive than a list of what folks are using if it's to be something that can be used to make informed decisions. No offense but for a person to just state that they use "this and that" doesn't help the newcomer looking for solid information. Let's gather some comments on what folks want to see in such a FAQ and start a new thread without the comments to clutter things up.
However I can see where a FAQ of this sort will generate a lot of questions so perhaps a stickied ongoing discussion as a companion to the informative thread would work as well.... Hmmmm
But I like the idea of hitting up headings. I'd suggest the following that sort of meld a couple of your's as well as adding some extra.
CAD programs listing- Arranged by cost from free to $$$$$$ along with short descriptions for what form of drawing each specializes in.
Airfoil programs- This really is part of Aerodynamics but there's so many of them and it's so specific that it's worth having it's own heading.
Aerodynamic programs- I know of some neat calculators for lift coefficients, stability calculations, flying wing parameters, MAC calculators and the ever popular tail volume coefficients, among others, and some sites that can be quoted for other info.
Structural design- this is a little more abstract. It'll be a mix of written material and basic engineering text. This will be a hard one to pin down.
By Airfoil design did you mean the plotting software or truly designing using tools such as Xfoil? Overal design is too abstract. It's part art, part engineering and part black magic. Besides, it's elements, other than the art content, falls nicely under the other technical headings.
Something else that works nice is a link to a Search here at RCU. Rather than rewrite the encyclopedia we can add a link to a specific search and that search will find all the old posts as well as any new ones made since the FAQ was written. It would be a great way to provide background on CAD information and some other great information that is already in the archives here while including any new items.
There's a lot of work to pull all this info, links, quotes and all together in a meaningful way. A team of folks to help would be nice. I'd be happy to put myself up as coordinator (unless someone else wants it) and one of the researchers.
Posts: 257
Joined: 4/14/2003 From: Watertown,
SD, USA Status: offline
I beelive that we have a good idea on what we want from this listing. A sticy FAQ about different software, links, costs, etc would be a great benifit to everyone. If you know of any software you use to make your scratch built aircraft, just list it here and we can sort out the headings and placement of it, make reviews features, etc.
We might also wan tto include a few 'engineering sites' that have some nice info, like tap & drill sizes, so you know what size hole to drill to tap a 5-32 hole..
Or maybe a general CAD FAQ, but I can see that getting very specific, and HUGE!
For me: Acad, Mechanical Desktop, Inventor and Cone ( a progtram to make fustrums & it's flat shape)
www.tolerancing.com a good site with a plentitude of info on tolerancing & goemtric tolerancing
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Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.
Posts: 33
Joined: 9/19/2003 From: nepean, ON, CANADA Status: offline
Hi,
I used Autocad a lot before I got Rhino 3D. This program is like a whole new world. So much easier to use and I find that you get a better result. As for airfoils I use Profili.
Autocad (newer versions; 2000 +) cost and liscencing: Full blown package: about $2k. LT : under a grand Pros: the CAD granddaddy, relatively simple, well known, and used by many, 'DXF' file format now 'industry standard', the standfard to draw 2D stuff cons: cost, ease of use, 3D modelling, need to know how to draft www.autodesk.com
Inventor cost: about $6K Pros: one of teh best 3d 'Parametric' modeller programs out there, can read 'DWG' and DXF files, able to 'fit to path' for parts creation (stringers, etc..) dwgs created from the models. Fancy 'real model' with nice colurs / textures. cons: cost!!! learning curve!! Computing power required!
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Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.
Here is my take on Solidworks as a tool for designing planes.
PROS: Fast learning curve (intuitive) Good online help for each tool and feature Helpful tutorials Friendly interface Easy to modify materials properties Generates Bill of Materials and/or exports to Excel Good photo rendering tool (PhotoWorks plugin) Easy to determine CG, CI, weight and other properties Straight forward mating for fixed and moveable parts in assemblies Imports and exports to just about every other package including AutoCAD, ProE, etc. Stable
CONS: Surfacing for skins, fabric, etc. can be a challenge No aerodynamic modeling Expensive (~$4000) Overkill if all you want to do is model R/C planes (but great if you have it)
INFORMATION LINKS Here is a link to a thread on another board about my SolidWorks project 1910 AVRO Triplane Link
TurboCAD ver 9 Standard Cost ~ Standard $150.... Pro $350 but past comes up on sale often and are very usable. Version 7 and 8 can be had for as little as $40 to 50. Get only Standard or Pro and NOT Designer. Designer is a stripped down version.
3D support seems quite good for Ver 9 Standard and very good for 9Pro. Past versions were a strugge but I do 2D anyway and if most folks just want to do magazine style plans then 2D is all you need.
Fairly easy learning curve for a full featured CAD. Customizable toolbars present the tools YOU want at your fingertips. Wide variety of snaps with only a single key click at any time (this is a VERY good thing). Some AutoCAD users have commented that TurboCAD is easier and just as good as AutoCAD and they prefer it. And at about 1/40th the price.
I've got probably 100 to 150 drawings of various complexities under my belt now from simple sketches to full blown plans and I can easily say that the only time I now reach for paper and pencil is if the computer is not available or if I'm just doodling. For everything else it's TurboCAD even for a simple arrangement to check some geometries or dimensions. Honestly, it's faster than pencil and ruler with some practice and with some setup. Those of you that have seen my sketches posted with my replies have seen Turbocad in quick action.
Pros- price, relative ease of setup and use, good help with package, lots of community support, tile prints on regular paper, wide file type import support and generous output file support.
Cons- Frankly I can't think of any other than some DWG incompatibilities with some AutoCAD drawings in specific cases. I too have run into this but found it rare. I've seen other CAD's that made some steps easier but I always had a two or three step workaround for those. The learning curve is steep but in the end you can do simple drawings far faster with this program than you can with a pencil, ruler and paper if accuracy counts.
Posts: 2438
Joined: 1/19/2002 From: Anchorage,
AK, USA Status: offline
Like a photographer would say, "If you want to end up with prints, use print film... If you want to end up with transparencies, use slide film." Same for us in CAD.
I use "Carrara Studio 3". on a Mac. (It runs on both Mac and PC.) At this time, the only CNC work I'd have done from those files would be plugs for molds, so the standard DXF export will work fine. I do produce cross-sections with the software, but generally do not have parts laser-cut from them, because I engineer "as I go", and often change things during the prototype stages.
Pros are low cost (around $400) ease and speed of use, (once you've used it for a while) easy conversion from various 3D file types, (3DMF, DXF, OBJ, and it's own proprietary format, .CAR) It has several different types of modelers, and the ability to convert one type of model to another, and it has tremendous rendering capabilities, on a par with much more expensive programs... texture mapping, soft shadows, radiosity, stills, movies, etc.)
For me it's mostly a visualization tool, used to quickly create concepts and show them to others, including people here on RCU. I can plan the placement of engines, servos, and other internal parts, animate landing gear sequences, and so on, pretty easily. (I've been using it for over 10 years, in different versions.) It does not have aerodynamic analysis or structural analysis built in, but does have key-frame animation and "physics", including collision detection.
Cons... It's not "AutoCad". So, like my first sentence reads, if you need AutoCad features, buy AutoCad. If not, Carrara Studio will give you an large amount of bang for your buck. ( http://www.eovia.com )
Here's a sample rendering, attached.
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Mike James RC Design and Building - www.nextcraft.com
Posts: 56
Joined: 6/17/2004 From: Fort Wayne,
IN, USA Status: online
AutoCAD 2005 - just about all of my 2D drawing needs CADKEY Workshop EX ver 21.5 - All of my 3D needs 3D Studio Max 5 - high detail 3D models and animations SV ScanRasterVector and RasterxAutoImage - raster to vector conversion PaintShopPro 8 - the only image editing software you will ever need, in my opinion
Funny thing about AutoCAD is that I have been using it for nearly 22 years and I still hate using it for 3D. CADKEY has always did 3D the same way today as it did 15 years ago.
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