Modeling Software (Full Version)

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ThunderAI-RCU -> Modeling Software (6/28/2004 5:37:10 AM)

*editorial note, make sticky, thanks*


  • COMPUTER AIDED DESIGN ( CAD Programs)

    • TURBO CAD 4 LE

      • Cost and Liceinsing: Free for infinit users
      • Pros:





      • Cons:





      • Informational / Reviews Links:





      • Download Links:






    • Software 2

      • Cost and Liceinsing:
      • Pros:





      • Cons:





      • Links:






    • Software 3

      • Cost and Liceinsing:
      • Pros:





      • Cons:





      • Links:






    • PARTS AND EQUIPMENT DRAWINGS






  • COMPUTER NUMERICAL CONTROL (CNC Programs)





  • AIRFOIL PROGRAMS





  • AERODYNAMIC CALCULATORS / PROGRAMS





  • LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA (engineering topics)

  • TOOLS AND EQUIPMENT






I will edit this message to update current software listings as they become mentioned.

And as such, what software packages do you use to design your remote control aircraft.

For example, I use TurboCAD 4LE. (i'm cheap) What software do you use.

The categories I can think of are. Please provide any other categories so we can make a complete lisitng with links to those products.

Airfoil Design
Weight and Balance
Overall Design
Misc



erazz -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 6:52:20 AM)

Software used:
Solidworks, SolidEdge, Autocad for modeling (nice to have access to a design office with all the licenses)
Profili
MotoCalc

Trying to find a good program for cnc now (mesh3d seems nice, don't have money for MasterCam or VirtualMill)



MiL -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 8:12:47 AM)

I've only designed one plane before (original Taco) and it was a very bare bones drawing. I used Autocad 2000 for that if i recall correctly.

I'm planning on doing another one soon, just trying to figure out what i want (leaning toward classicly styled aerobatic biplane). I think this time around i'm going to try to model it in 3D as well as just making plan drawings. I'll be using Inventor 8 and autocad 2004. I used Profili for airfoil and didn't use anything for balance or overall design.



BMatthews -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 8:46:23 AM)

I've been giving some thought to a FAQ for just this topic. But I'm not really sure what form it should take. Certainly download links or quotes from sources but I'd like it to be more definitive than a list of what folks are using if it's to be something that can be used to make informed decisions. No offense but for a person to just state that they use "this and that" doesn't help the newcomer looking for solid information. Let's gather some comments on what folks want to see in such a FAQ and start a new thread without the comments to clutter things up.

However I can see where a FAQ of this sort will generate a lot of questions so perhaps a stickied ongoing discussion as a companion to the informative thread would work as well.... Hmmmm

But I like the idea of hitting up headings. I'd suggest the following that sort of meld a couple of your's as well as adding some extra.

  • CAD programs listing- Arranged by cost from free to $$$$$$ along with short descriptions for what form of drawing each specializes in.
  • Airfoil programs- This really is part of Aerodynamics but there's so many of them and it's so specific that it's worth having it's own heading.
  • Aerodynamic programs- I know of some neat calculators for lift coefficients, stability calculations, flying wing parameters, MAC calculators and the ever popular tail volume coefficients, among others, and some sites that can be quoted for other info.
  • Structural design- this is a little more abstract. It'll be a mix of written material and basic engineering text. This will be a hard one to pin down.


By Airfoil design did you mean the plotting software or truly designing using tools such as Xfoil? Overal design is too abstract. It's part art, part engineering and part black magic. Besides, it's elements, other than the art content, falls nicely under the other technical headings.

Something else that works nice is a link to a Search here at RCU. Rather than rewrite the encyclopedia we can add a link to a specific search and that search will find all the old posts as well as any new ones made since the FAQ was written. It would be a great way to provide background on CAD information and some other great information that is already in the archives here while including any new items.

There's a lot of work to pull all this info, links, quotes and all together in a meaningful way. A team of folks to help would be nice. I'd be happy to put myself up as coordinator (unless someone else wants it) and one of the researchers.



ThunderAI-RCU -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 2:33:12 PM)

I beelive that we have a good idea on what we want from this listing. A sticy FAQ about different software, links, costs, etc would be a great benifit to everyone. If you know of any software you use to make your scratch built aircraft, just list it here and we can sort out the headings and placement of it, make reviews features, etc.



dr_wogz -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 2:38:41 PM)

We might also wan tto include a few 'engineering sites' that have some nice info, like tap & drill sizes, so you know what size hole to drill to tap a 5-32 hole..

Or maybe a general CAD FAQ, but I can see that getting very specific, and HUGE!

For me: Acad, Mechanical Desktop, Inventor and Cone ( a progtram to make fustrums & it's flat shape)


www.tolerancing.com
a good site with a plentitude of info on tolerancing & goemtric tolerancing



olympus_86 -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 6:24:45 PM)

Hi,

I used Autocad a lot before I got Rhino 3D. This program is like a whole new world. So much easier to use and I find that you get a better result. As for airfoils I use Profili.

Sebastian



dr_wogz -> RE: Modeling Software (6/28/2004 9:48:34 PM)

Autocad (newer versions; 2000 +)
cost and liscencing: Full blown package: about $2k. LT : under a grand
Pros: the CAD granddaddy, relatively simple, well known, and used by many, 'DXF' file format now 'industry standard', the standfard to draw 2D stuff
cons: cost, ease of use, 3D modelling, need to know how to draft
www.autodesk.com

Inventor
cost: about $6K
Pros: one of teh best 3d 'Parametric' modeller programs out there, can read 'DWG' and DXF files, able to 'fit to path' for parts creation (stringers, etc..) dwgs created from the models. Fancy 'real model' with nice colurs / textures.
cons: cost!!! learning curve!! Computing power required!



Chevelle -> RE: Modeling Software (6/29/2004 1:45:41 AM)

Here is my take on Solidworks as a tool for designing planes.

PROS:
Fast learning curve (intuitive)
Good online help for each tool and feature
Helpful tutorials
Friendly interface
Easy to modify materials properties
Generates Bill of Materials and/or exports to Excel
Good photo rendering tool (PhotoWorks plugin)
Easy to determine CG, CI, weight and other properties
Straight forward mating for fixed and moveable parts in assemblies
Imports and exports to just about every other package including AutoCAD, ProE, etc.
Stable

CONS:
Surfacing for skins, fabric, etc. can be a challenge
No aerodynamic modeling
Expensive (~$4000)
Overkill if all you want to do is model R/C planes (but great if you have it)

INFORMATION LINKS
Here is a link to a thread on another board about my SolidWorks project
1910 AVRO Triplane Link

DEVELOPER'S SITE
www.solidworks.com



BMatthews -> RE: Modeling Software (6/29/2004 2:44:13 AM)

TurboCAD ver 9 Standard
Cost ~ Standard $150.... Pro $350 but past comes up on sale often and are very usable. Version 7 and 8 can be had for as little as $40 to 50. Get only Standard or Pro and NOT Designer. Designer is a stripped down version.

3D support seems quite good for Ver 9 Standard and very good for 9Pro. Past versions were a strugge but I do 2D anyway and if most folks just want to do magazine style plans then 2D is all you need.

Fairly easy learning curve for a full featured CAD. Customizable toolbars present the tools YOU want at your fingertips. Wide variety of snaps with only a single key click at any time (this is a VERY good thing). Some AutoCAD users have commented that TurboCAD is easier and just as good as AutoCAD and they prefer it. And at about 1/40th the price.

I've got probably 100 to 150 drawings of various complexities under my belt now from simple sketches to full blown plans and I can easily say that the only time I now reach for paper and pencil is if the computer is not available or if I'm just doodling. For everything else it's TurboCAD even for a simple arrangement to check some geometries or dimensions. Honestly, it's faster than pencil and ruler with some practice and with some setup. Those of you that have seen my sketches posted with my replies have seen Turbocad in quick action.

Pros- price, relative ease of setup and use, good help with package, lots of community support, tile prints on regular paper, wide file type import support and generous output file support.

Cons- Frankly I can't think of any other than some DWG incompatibilities with some AutoCAD drawings in specific cases. I too have run into this but found it rare. I've seen other CAD's that made some steps easier but I always had a two or three step workaround for those. The learning curve is steep but in the end you can do simple drawings far faster with this program than you can with a pencil, ruler and paper if accuracy counts.



Mike James -> RE: Modeling Software (6/29/2004 5:45:09 AM)

Like a photographer would say, "If you want to end up with prints, use print film... If you want to end up with transparencies, use slide film." Same for us in CAD.

I use "Carrara Studio 3". on a Mac. (It runs on both Mac and PC.) At this time, the only CNC work I'd have done from those files would be plugs for molds, so the standard DXF export will work fine. I do produce cross-sections with the software, but generally do not have parts laser-cut from them, because I engineer "as I go", and often change things during the prototype stages.

Pros are low cost (around $400) ease and speed of use, (once you've used it for a while) easy conversion from various 3D file types, (3DMF, DXF, OBJ, and it's own proprietary format, .CAR) It has several different types of modelers, and the ability to convert one type of model to another, and it has tremendous rendering capabilities, on a par with much more expensive programs... texture mapping, soft shadows, radiosity, stills, movies, etc.)

For me it's mostly a visualization tool, used to quickly create concepts and show them to others, including people here on RCU. I can plan the placement of engines, servos, and other internal parts, animate landing gear sequences, and so on, pretty easily. (I've been using it for over 10 years, in different versions.) It does not have aerodynamic analysis or structural analysis built in, but does have key-frame animation and "physics", including collision detection.

Cons... It's not "AutoCad". So, like my first sentence reads, if you need AutoCad features, buy AutoCad. If not, Carrara Studio will give you an large amount of bang for your buck. ( http://www.eovia.com )

Here's a sample rendering, attached.



DustOffUH1 -> RE: Modeling Software (6/30/2004 11:03:50 PM)

I just bought TurboCad 8 for $13 including shipping, on ebay.



JonnyJohnston -> RE: Modeling Software (7/6/2004 2:52:43 AM)

AutoCAD 2005 - just about all of my 2D drawing needs
CADKEY Workshop EX ver 21.5 - All of my 3D needs
3D Studio Max 5 - high detail 3D models and animations
SV ScanRasterVector and RasterxAutoImage - raster to vector conversion
PaintShopPro 8 - the only image editing software you will ever need, in my opinion

Funny thing about AutoCAD is that I have been using it for nearly 22 years and I still hate using it for 3D. CADKEY has always did 3D the same way today as it did 15 years ago.

I still reach for the ole pencil and paper once in awhile. There is nothing more beautiful than a hand drawn set of prints. To bad it is not as fast as CAD. [:D]

Jon



DCM -> RE: Modeling Software (7/17/2004 12:30:36 PM)

I use Rhino 3D as a cad program and VisualMill for my cam program. I have been using this combo for serval years now and it's a wonderful thing.[:D]

www.dcmodelshop.com

David Hudson



666 -> RE: Modeling Software (8/3/2004 5:46:09 AM)

hey guys

I download that software turbo cad LE 4.0

A friend sent me a .dwg file but I can't open it.

Did anyone had the same problem ?

I know it supposed to support dwg files but maybe only from specific version.

it says there something about release 13 but I don't know what that means...

HELP [:o]



mhmitchell -> DWG and turbocad (8/5/2004 4:55:17 PM)

Fact of life is TurboCad will not load some DWG drawings.

There are solutions both free and expensive.

Use Adobe Illustrator to open the DWG save it as a DFX. I do this all the time works great but expensive. Also does almost all formats including PDF and you can save or export in almost any format. It will tile print.

Get yourself a cad image viewer for free from the net. Open the drawing using the program. Press PrtScrn on your keyboard. This saves what you see on the screen to the clipboard. Open MS Paint. EDIT PASTE will punt the drawing and viewer on the screen. Use the BOX select tool to cut the drawing out of the picture. Still using Paint FILE NEW paste EDIT PASTE to the drawing. SAVE as <name>.BMP. Open TurboCad . IMPORT PICTURE TO new drawing page. Sometimes you can just EDIT PASTE it to the drawing. SAVE AS TurboCad drawing. Scale and print as desired. Sometimes when scaling you get !QUOT!pixelized lines.UGH!. In that case change line color to something like RED or ORANGE or anything that will contrast with the black lines. Using ORTHO TOOL trace all straight HORIZONTAL LINES and VERTICAL LINES . Turn off ORTHO TOOL trace all slanted lines in the same color. Use the SPLINE TOOL(BELZIER CURVE) to trace all curved lines except circles then use the CIRCLE TOOL. Be sure to use the same contrasting color. EDIT SELECT BY COLOR
EDIT COPY FILE NEW FROM SCRATCH EDIT PASTE you now have a TurboCad drawing of your plan. The SCRN PRINT will work in any viewable format including PDF.

If you need the text too just use Turbos Text tool in the same color and type away.

I would imagine that this will work on almost all CAD programs.

May I also suggest that Turbo Designer has more than enough features for any modeler. I would also suggest Quick Cad by Autodesk (I think they make AutoCad but Quick Cad is a hone version of AutoCad and I think it uses the same commands. I have lost my original somewhere but I used to use it alot.



CoosBayLumber -> RE: Modeling Software (8/7/2004 9:46:04 PM)

666.........


The situation in not being able to open up foreign drawings created by Autodesk products such as Autocad or Quickcad is often affected by the version, and operator installed attributes. It is not possible to open up a drawing stored in ACAD R-2002 when using R-14, as the software technology was not present at the time. Thus I would assume that a TurboCAD version 7 would not be able to open up an ACAD R-2002 version drawing, as it had not been on the open market yet. Perhaps a Turbo version 9 would be able to though.

An old system of trying to find out what drawing files are possible to open up is to simply take a look at them. Speaking in Autodesk parlance here, pick out a drawing or DXF file. Then go to Windows NOTEPAD, and open up the file. Even if it clicks into CAD, do not attempt to open in any other format than NOTEPAD. You should see an endless array of single words and lines. On the first page of all this is the ACAD version identifyer.

Seeing ACAD then 1009 means you have a drawing file or DXF file compatible with Release R11/12, which is good in my way of thinking. Seeing ACAD then 1013 means you have a drawing file or DXF file compatible with Release R13, which is bad in my way of thinking as there were numerous problems with this edition due to the introduction of Windows 95. Seeing ACAD 1014 means you have a drawing file or DXF file compatible with Release R14. ACAD 2000 means Autocad 2000, ACAD 2002 means Autocad 2002 and such.

The object here is than in comparing the number of the foreign file, you will readily see if that drawing can be opened up or not. Generally, you cannot open up a more modern version with earlier software, which includes any of the non-CAD and graphic softwares too. You cannot open up any compatible version of a drawing file if it contains special attributes such as special menu files, and fonts to which your system does not comprehend.

One thing for home Quickcad owners they will Quickly find out is that unless the drawing file had originally been prepared with care, avoiding the use of special, but commonplace features of Autocad, there will be incompatibility also. Quickcad seems to have borrowed back to the time of Autocad R-10. A time when a custom menu, Paperspace and XREFs were not in the manual.

Wm.



SoCal GliderGuider -> RE: Modeling Software (8/13/2004 12:46:23 AM)

CoosBay Lumber in San Berdo? Interesting.

The Acad DXF files can be stripped back to an earlier version. I see if I still have the program to do this. Could even write one in LISP if I have to. As I never throw anything away I must have it somewhere.

Yes I'm an Acad abuser. Since version 2. Now using 2002 but would entertain version 2004 0r 2005!!!

I have a few LISP programs that could be polished to help import text based airfoil files. It's set up for either .COR or .DAT files now. Thinking of doing a LISP program that would optimize a parts sheet for efficent laser cutting IF I can't find one in the public domain.

Pros of Acad: Highly efficient IF you learn how to use it. Programmable in both the menus and LISP. Also has C++ and VB linkage. Mouse cording; you can use the middle and right buttons along with combinations of the left shift, ctrl and alt keys to invoke commands. Never take your right hand off of the mouse. Programmable keyboard short cuts to commands (left hand!).

Cons of Acad: Steep learning curve. Price. File portability between versions.



CoosBayLumber -> RE: Modeling Software (8/13/2004 3:46:48 AM)

Much of what you mention has already been invented.

I downloaded five different plot optimizers from CADALOG about five years ago. Have become a big advocate of the old fashioned plot optimizers as when working they tend to saw off about 30% of the laser cutting time. Results of these were that none of which will work with any CAD software that does not normally use ADI 4.0 or ADI 4.1 and thus for the better part that limits the useability to a genuine Autocad installation. Although there are drivers out there which will work a pen plotter, the plot language does not transferr over properly into the optimizers. I tried using the optimizer on later Autocad files and they "MAY" have cut the working time by 5%, but they really did not work with any Windows based driver that the non-Autocad system now use. Thought here is that ADI 4.2 and later drivers have a bunch of non-pen related file matter inserted, and thus the optimization could have been looking for isn't going to happen. Those old guys who ran on 386 computers had the skills equavalent to a turn of the century wooden furniture maker. Monday I received a zip file on a set of parts done in R-13 using the ADI 4.2, and the optimizers changed to order, but the time was still within a few seconds of an unaltered file. Only seems to work good with R-10 to R-12.

There are also a couple of free airfoil programs available a the above noted site. However, many folks like to use the commercially available Compufoil or other such softwares which allow the user to view and alter the basis of the numerical airfoil.

What had been looking for was a LISP routine that enabled taking X,Y,Z coordinates set along a fuselage and then run em such that contours of known widths could be developed. Thus looking in a sideview, there would be a line, or contour, representing a 6 unit, 7 unit, or 8 unit wide interval away from the X,Y,Z centerline. I located a free version designed for a canoue, but it cited only results in feet, inches and fractions thereto. A forum reader had developed something for our use, but it only worked in Acad 2000, and with a certain module loaded into memory.


Wm.



SoCal GliderGuider -> RE: Modeling Software (8/13/2004 4:39:50 AM)

I'm not sure I follow you about the fuse problem. Post a link for the canoe program so I can see what you mean. Or post an image. If I can figure out how to write a program to do 3D motorcycle treads in Acad I can do this.

A DXF file can be optimized with a VB program. It doesn't have to be a LISP run inside Acad on a native DWG file. Just that LISP is quicker to program and debug. Accessing the DWG entity data is faster and can be automated.

As to already invented; when I wrote my programs there was just barely version one of Compufoil. No Acad LISP programs.



CoosBayLumber -> RE: Modeling Software (8/13/2004 3:42:55 PM)

I got three of the contour chasing programs. As it was a Freeware version the developer based in Toronto, set a limitation of no more than ten per final view. It also only worked in feet, inches and fractions. I think it came via Caddepot, Cadonline, Cadsyst or Cadalog, one of those freeware places. There is often a repetition of stuff available. Took me all day to base out a fuselage from a magazine article to which had just a few frames shown, but a ten frame limitation did me little good. The developer mentioned that he had developed it from a civil engineering program to run contours from spot elevations, and wanted to develop drawing files for a line of high performance canoues that you could plot out and develop yourself.

The canoe one worked best for my purposes. Speaking his in home built canoe language, you set up an array of frames in 3D. The hull length ran along the X axis. The width on the Z axis, and the height on the Y axis. You then designed up a few of the U shapes on individual drawings with all endpoints having a X-Y-Z coordinates. Then you opened up a whole new drawing in 3D and either XREF'd or INSERTed the frames into using a 0,0,0 as base. The LISP program was then run and a value inserted to which it could find. Looking down into the U shaped opening, you could ask for the contour representing a line along Y=11 inches, which is not normally visable in that view. Looking at the sideview, you could ask for the contour representing Z=10 inches. The lines contained no curves, but simply went and interpretated the value on the Z axis for all visable lines. Thus you wound up with a few straight looking contours at Z=10. As you adjusted the already created frames, or added more frames, the line representing Z=10 would get more curvy looking, but was always made up from straight line segments.

I have been associated with the civil engineering trade since the 1970's and our room with the recently graduated $5 per hour geeks used to take our thoughts, and make software for the company use. We had working software for this by 1978, but computers were not widely available. It also was based upon numbered endpoint and curve centers.

The other mentioned situation is not developed for operating with DXF, DWG, TC or DC files. The plot compiler is about the last thing to run before sending the signals down the wire to the H-P or Calcomp plotter. It only works with plotter languages. Much of the controller software for CNC and laser works with a KCAM developed language. The KCAM will import certain plotter languages and then convert and send the signals over to the machine tool controller board. KCAM4 is most popular today as it is freeware, however we have been using KCAM6 which is not. I run the plot compiler on an Autocad created xx.PLT file and then import. I have also run it in a G-code converter, but it sometimes screws this opertion up. Same with abrasive blast cutting machines. To test the compiled plot file, I just set the plotter to run at 1 IPS instead of the 54 IPS which it notmally does. I then can estimate the total time for cutting a sheet of parts, and see what order they are being done. Perhaps then, go back and adjust things and make an even faster file, for a few seconds saved per file will lessen the overall costs on an hourly basis.


Wm.



SoCal GliderGuider -> RE: Modeling Software (8/13/2004 4:27:05 PM)

So you want to loft out fuse contours between known 2D bulk heads. OK.

As to plotter optimization: Take the DXF out put of a single airfoil from CompuFoil or another airfoil program and open it in a decent text editor. I like UltraEdit. NotePad comes with Windows but it's so limited. The first 686 to over 800 lines are the header text before the file gets to the entity descriptions. These contain system and drawing info such as line types and layers. Once the "ENTITY" section is reached all of the data is in Acad delineation. The values after the 10 are the X, after the 20 the Y. The other number sets (if they exist) are which layer, what line type, etc.

So it is possible to read the DXF and sort the entities so that as the DXF is read into the plotting file compiler the closest entity to the end of the prior entity is the one the laser cutter jumps to. Then other factors such as where the next entity ends have to be taken into consideration. As you can take a text file into Acad and use LISP to manipulate it then read it back out to a text file all of this could be done in LISP. However even a simple Visual Basic program would be light years faster and could be run on a DXF file independent of Acad.

Where is that room full of $5 programmers when you need them!



scalebldr -> RE: Modeling Software (10/23/2004 11:03:53 PM)

looks like i am a minority that uses designcad 3k after learning modelcad 99 it was easy to use and compatable .also wingcad for airfoils and wing platforms and profli for the same have autocad 14 and 2004 that oinly works on xp but still go back to design cad also have tried turbocad.to each his own as long as the results are worth the work and effort.i dolike the feature of being able to import scans of 3 veiws for tracing outlines then adding construction details



marwen1 -> RE: Modeling Software (12/21/2004 7:34:29 AM)

Well, it looks like the last post on this subject was about 2 months ago and the thread started back 6 months ago. I read MOST of the items rather quickly and I keep hearing that "I have a program, but I can't open my file"

I do LARGE FORMAT DIGITAL IMAGING. I use CAD. BUt more times than not - on-line, all I find is either a PDF, a DWG, or else DXF.

I have not yet had a problem opening any file with either Adobe PHOTOSHOP 7.0 or higher, or else ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR X.

Earlier versions may or may not open. IN fact, both of thoe programs will open by either IMPORTING or opening anf PDF that is locked.

If it is locked with a MASTER "key", then you will need that key.

Best of luck

marwen



JonnyJohnston -> RE: Modeling Software (12/22/2004 2:33:31 AM)

This will get me banned for sure. I use Catia v5r13 and Unigraphics NX at work. Now have a copy of Inventor 9 and SolidWorks 2001Plus for home. I have copies of UG NX and Catia if anyone can find licensing files for them. Oh, by the way if you are not running dual 2.66 ghz 1.5 gig memory and the latest in Catia compatible video cards do not even bother talking about Catia. My machine at work chokes. I design dies for the auto industry. My assembly files are an average of 200 meg in size. Catia sucks the big one, but we have no choice as our parts are coming in Catia now. SolidWorks is very close to Catia by the way, it is owned by Dassault Systems as is Catia. For a comparison, UG is like AutoCAD, Catia is like a right handed man designing with his right arm cut off and his left hand stuck...

Jonny



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