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Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 2:17:55 AM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Maybe I'm opening a can of worms, but why can't we approve a couple other "plastic props"??????????

Some that will let you turn up a few more rpms would be nice, especially in the hot, humid, Muncie weather.

Fred, I'm sure you can make a few differenet variations to help even out the playing field with the hand carved wood out there???

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Dave Norman

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RE: Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 2:39:15 PM   
Jerry-B


 

Posts: 40
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Ramsey, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Great idea Dave, two more sizes of black APC props that have a little less pitch would help me catch guys like you that turned a 104 and change at the NATS last week. I had a GREAT time there, even though someone from out west cut off my tail LOL

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 2

RE: Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 3:58:33 PM   
js3



Posts: 1147
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Dave,

Submit your proposal to the AMA pylon rules committee. If it passes, we can begin using new props in 07 that is if Fred has them made by then. I don't see how this issue could be pushed through as an "emergency proposal".

I'd like to see a few different sizes in both pitch and dia. and I would also like for other manufacturers to be allowed into this market. Not that I don't like Fred's props, I just don't like monopolies.

One thing that really bothered me about when the plastic prop was introduced before was that it made no allowance for flying at altitude. On a lot of days where I race the 7.4 X 8 and 8.0 are just too big.

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John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to Jerry-B)
       Post #: 3

RE: Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 4:03:11 PM   
js3



Posts: 1147
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the speed creep issue. Do we REALLY need to go any faster with these things?

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John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to js3)
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RE: Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 4:36:11 PM   
daven



Posts: 7026
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Thats why I would like to just have a couple more allowed, not open up as a free for all.

Like you mentioned, elevation and weather/humidity/pressure can make the currently legal prop nearly unusable. Also, many of the older/weaker q40 motors just can't turn it.

As to speed creep, the best times at the Nats mostly came from wood props (Kane, Ullinger, Del Ponte, Scott). I think the wood props will remain faster, but a couple different "plastic props" would help without putting a huge load on your engine when the conditions don't allow it to turn up.

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(in reply to js3)
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RE: Plastic Props - 7/20/2004 5:20:10 PM   
luv to race


 

Posts: 490
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline 		Awesome reasoning Dave. I've said it from the git-go.... The plastic prop helps the guy with no money, he can now buy a competitive prop for less than $10 bucks. BUT... he has to spend $165 for a new top end, because his burnt up POS won't turn the current plastic 21.5k ...

Just 2 more versions would be great. We can hardly use them in Florida. Way to hot and humid to turn that thing.

We need our guys to just pass a rule or we can have it written on the sanction for each race... Fred can cut the mold and have a test prop done in a matter of hours. There has to be a way to make this happen quickly. Waiting until 2007 is nuts.

We need to have the ability in our sport to change rules quickly to keep up with the evolution of our hobby. This is a needed change!


Randy Bridge

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 6

RE: Plastic Props - 7/21/2004 3:29:52 PM   
Terryoc


 

Posts: 92
Joined: 6/19/2002
From: WerribeeVictoria, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Why not just allow clipping the Diameter down say 1/4" it would save all the hassle of new props .Here in Aus in our F400 we use QM40 motors on FAI fuel and used to use the grey APC props but some using modified cheaper engines were fracturing blades so they opened up the props to anything made in carbon the times have droped about 10 seconds since and on the F3D course at the Aus champs one guy was doing 65 second times. Too fast I say.
Terry

(in reply to luv to race)
       Post #: 7

RE: Plastic Props - 7/21/2004 4:33:50 PM   
mhelsel


 

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/17/2003
From: Katy, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I agree, I think it is time to let APC release more props for Q40. The dreaded speed creep has not occurred. What has happened is that more people are competitive because of the APC prop, but a single size can not be run everywhere. It does work in Q500.

(in reply to daven)
       Post #: 8

RE: Plastic Props - 7/21/2004 4:45:00 PM   
John Z Williams Jr


 

Posts: 121
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: Boulder, CO, USA
Status: offline 		I agree Mike, I could not get the black prop to go very well at the nats and neither could Duane, we both swithed to wood and Duane made a smoker that improved his time from a 1:13 to a 1:08!!! I ended up buying 2 props for 35.00 bucks each!!! One was fast one part of the day and then was too much load, switched to the other and went slower... Back to the black prop and had medium speed...
The guys with the good wood where in another speed range all together, Danny Kane and Roy A. where on fire!!!
I am going to keep trying on the prop making, whats strange is Duane had a good prop that was smoking, we made some others just like it, same blank, thickness and diameter and pitch, they did not go like the original....
OH well if you first do not succeed........

John W.

(in reply to mhelsel)
       Post #: 9

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 3:16:34 AM   
Tony Pacini


 

Posts: 276
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Prescott Valley, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		A few lighter (plastic) props certainly wouldn't hurt and arguably wouldn't increase the speed any.

The plastic props save more time than money. By the time you field a competitive Q-40 ship (usually composite) you've got nearly a grand into it, anyway. $10 props aren't going to make that much of a difference (if you can buy wooden ringers for $35-$50). I've got a pitch gauge and a bunch of blanks but I'd rather spend my time building and flying than carving props. Take that back....I'd rather spend my time doing ANYTHING but carving wood props. Most of mine end up as glue sticks, anyway.

Yes, I believe that those who can carve good wood props may have a slight advantage (all else being equal). The fact is, though, that those guys going fast with wood props also have the airframe/engine/flying skills to utilize whatever advantage the better prop may offer. Ya still gotta fly the plane.....

Once I believe that I'm putting everything on the course (not quite there yet) I'll spend the time experimenting with props. Right now I'm afraid it would be a waste.

< Message edited by T-pacini -- 7/24/2004 2:11:35 AM >

(in reply to John Z Williams Jr)
       Post #: 10

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 3:36:25 PM   
kane


 

Posts: 255
Joined: 6/28/2002
From: Arlington Heights, IL, USA
Status: offline 		It is very interesting that this discussion has surfaced again!

Randy, there is no way to get it passed before 2007. However, a CD can change the rules if it is published prior to the competition beginning. This is actually how we used the APC prop before it was approved.

All I have to say is why? Randy, you certainly, don't need to go any faster nor does anyone running the plastic. The fastest I have ever gone was with a plastic prop (1:00:??). I don't feel a bigger selection is necessary. In terms of different parts of the country running different props, so be it, do it on a local level to suit your needs. That doesn't mean that those props will work in muncie. And if they do what did we accomplish? What are the means to the end of creating new props? Are we trying to go faster? Are we trying to be more competitive? What would we be accomplishing by having a larger selection?

Take this statement for what it is worth, I am flying wood props because I can. However, if the plastic props worked with my set-up, I would be running plastic. There are things I can change with wood, that you cannot change with plastic legally. That is where the advantage lies. I don't think wood props are vodoo magic. It just seems that people are not willing to spend the time to figure out how to make it work. The names listed previously, DelPonte, Scott, Ullinger and one forgotten Grunk (not at the nats but Mr. Wood). These are the people willing to devote time and energy to finding the right combination. Take the time to figure out what to do!

Dan

(in reply to Tony Pacini)
       Post #: 11

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 4:50:35 PM   
luv to race


 

Posts: 490
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline 		The question is why..?

It's not to go faster. And the idea is not to help ME. I can make wood as good as anybody. I have also done one 1:00 minute times with the plastic, however, my low times were all done with the original version. Not the 7.4x8.0 version. Which is neither here nor there...

The idea is simply to help keep costs down. Which I believe is the reason for passing the original rule? What happens across the country is the majority of people can NOT pull the prop over 23k. Now you add some humidity to the mix and you now have 21,5k. To me, that is simply unacceptable.....

I'm sure this idea has nothing to do with Muncie (at least from my stand point). This would possibly allow the beginner to buy a used plane/motor and have a choice of props for which his "used" motor will operate. And not be stuck the one prop that is to heavy. He could carve his own wood, or spend $35 bucks on a wood prop, but the rule was passed to help avoid this?.. That would put the beginner right back in the same situation we existed in before the original rule was developed.

Maybe my reasoning is not valid? But maybe with a selection, the emphasis on always having a "fresh" bullet would go away.


Randy

< Message edited by luv to race -- 7/23/2004 4:53:50 PM >

(in reply to kane)
       Post #: 12

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 5:16:01 PM   
John Z Williams Jr


 

Posts: 121
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: Boulder, CO, USA
Status: offline 		I will have to disagree with you Danny, I have been trying to make props for about 1 year now, I have put in a lot of time and money and have made only a couple that would go as good as the black prop. The means to the end would be that in Muncie or Florida, you would even the playing field, as has been done on the west coast, the black props work good there, but in high humidity and heat the black ones will not get into the power band.. 22,300rpm is a little low... I thought the whole reason to let in black props was to make the field more level, not make it a who can make the best prop contest, but who can fly the best... I know these go hand in hand, but I also know I do not have the skill to make a good wood prop, although I am trying and will continue trying to achieve this goal, I feel if a couple of lower pitch cf props where allowed it would enable people like myself to go fast or faster in hot humid conditions where the black prop is sometimes too much load.... This would even out the playing field between guys that know how to make a great prop and guys that do not, then its a pilots race, not a prop race... I have put in many hours in the last 3 months testing all different types of props and would rather spend my time going around the poles than carving them, but I was willing to try and maybe some day I will get it, but in the mean time, a larger selection of cf props would give the people that do not know how to make wood a better chance at staying up with the guys that do. I also know if I did know how to make a good wood prop and had a lot of time and money into it I would not be so ready to allow the new cf props into the ballgame, I guess it depends on which side of the fence you reside....
JW

(in reply to luv to race)
       Post #: 13

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 7:09:40 PM   
luv to race


 

Posts: 490
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline 		After re-reading this thread, there appears to be 7 guys voicing there opinion in the discussion. If you notice where they live... it's hot and humid... and it's high altitude. They don't have a chance with Fred's prop.

So ask this question... Who does the carbon prop rule benefit?? That question baffles the crap out of me.. maybe it's time to rewrite the rule to help those who need it...

And again.. I DON'T NEED THE HELP... just trying to be a voice..

Randy Bridge

(in reply to John Z Williams Jr)
       Post #: 14

RE: Plastic Props - 7/23/2004 9:55:47 PM