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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 3:49 PM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		Dangaras got there before me,......but you are in luck my fellow mossie man, I found the receipt for the parts I am using...HAN4914. I bought metric blind nuts, and used a slightly longer bolt to accomodate my spacers....

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 5:25 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		ugh hobby king...it takes forever for me to get something from them.... ill have to do some more measuring when i get home to get the proper size for the stand offs. Thanks for the info

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 5:39 PM   
Dangaras



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Status: offline 		What? In the US you should get these inside of 10 days. If they are available from the US warehouse even faster.

You could always get some steel or aluminum tube and cut your own standoffs to fit...


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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 6:07 PM   
kahloq



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Status: offline 		Ummm guys.....you can go to any Home Depot and get aluminum spacers and bolts/blindnuts to do the job. They call them T nuts at Home Depot. There are different lengths of the spacers so you can stack them around the bolt to get the exact distance you want.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Search?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&keyword=aluminum%20spacer&Ns=None&Ntpr=1&Ntpc=1&selectedCatgry=Search+All

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 7:17 PM   
david polley


 

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Status: offline 		Wow.........

    I haven't seen this much action on this thread in years...It is really neat that new ideas are constantly coming from folks who have such a passion for the De Havilland Mosquito.....I hope NitroPlanes appreciates this.....

Hope everyone sees that these models get in the air...Great discussions......

David

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 8:50 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		Home Depot would be a good place to look.
OK as for lipo batteries. I'm not going to do 1 big battery i'm gonna go with 2 separate batteries. Gotta figure out which batteries would be good with my set up. 2X Rimfire .60s and 2X Hobbywing 60A platinum ESCs...looking at getting a 6s1p like a zippy 40C series 3000mah lipos...something that wont blow holes in my wallet. budget counts lol

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/16/2013 10:30 PM   
kahloq



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Status: offline 		Not sure what type of flight time your looking for......and this isnt a direct comparison, but, might be of assistance. In my ESM 95" me-110, Im running two power 60's. So same basic size as the rimfire's your using...but the power 60's are 400kv and can spin 16x10 3 blades. If your using the 650kv version of the rimfire 60 with 13x8x3's, Id imagine the amp draw would be similar, but probably a tad lower on your setup. Higher kv, but lower diameter prop....less mass to spin so not as much work needed.
Anyway.....I am running 2x 6s 6000mah in parallel and can safely fly 7 mins. Please be aware though, that on one flight, I did fly till 7 mins and had an engine drop out(it saw LVC)....the other motor kept running. Fortunately, its not a p-38 and I was able to maintain control of the aircraft. Probably lucky on which of the motors shut down. I was able to do a WIDE circuit to line up for controlled landing on the runway and...surprisingly, the 2nd motor came back on(less draw on the batts allowed the voltage to rise back up some) and since I had lowered the throttle, the LVC motor came back on. Had I not been running the large props, I wouldnt have had enough thrust to maintain flight on one motor.

So.....make sure whatever setup you use, that you make sure to keep UNDER a safe flight time. Test it out in increments...first..short flight, say 3 mins. Then check how much you put back in them when recharging to give an estimate of how long you can fly. I know...this is all a "ya I know...duh" but Im just giving a word of caution.

Friend of mine thats been flying for 30 years has this mossie and he had an engine out. While he did manage to get it down, it wasnt without structural damage. He fixed it...flew it again and had another engine out a few fights later. This time he wasnt able to save it and it went in pretty hard. He bought another one and put larger motors and bigger props on it. His is glow.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 11:22 AM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		6S will blow the ESC to pieces on any good sized prop. You would need to use 4S packs for a motor of that KV.

I had the same problem when I was looking at using the 700Kv motors...too much revs off of 6S. I think in the earlier posting I tried 4S and posted some figures....

4S might save you some funds, but the amps are going to be in the 50-60A range. With a 12x8x3 prop you are looking at 1:1 thrust ratio, with 53A and run time of about 5mins. The biggest problem here is that your pitch speed looks a little low at 64MPH.....but it would work I think. And you will need to find place to put a pair of 4S 3000Mah as forward as possible to give you a total of 6000Mah to get that flight time.

Dave Polley, I think the biggest problem is that these planes are now no longer produced. If anyone wants one, nitro and raidentech are the only likely places that they are in stock.

Sad to see her go, and I am going to try and pickup another one just to keep as a spare in case mine dies on maiden or soon thereafter...I hope not, but these things happen when you are 'trial' fitting decent setups......

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 2:11 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		Wow 4S 3000mah...will def. be cheaper..so I guess 4S batts would be enough for my set up...I did the measuring for the stand offs and 30mm is what I need to mount the motors. looks like i'm going to be ordering for hobbyking today along with some spinners. As for the battery placement, I should have took pics but i finally opened up one of those battery compartments behind the motor fire walls and there is a nice big area there to slide in some batteries. as for the weight and balance..why is this plane so damn tail heavy?? When I picked this plane up from the previous owner he had a brick of lead weights zipped tided together in the nose. I may have to go back to that set up once its done. Talk about multi tasking been working on 3 projects at the same time..a Custom Top Flite P-51B 60, this mossy and a HK 70mm viperjet lol and still have several more planes to build.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 2:40 PM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		4S will be cheaper, but you will need two 3000Mah......or a single 6000Mah, depends which config you use. I would always prefer to put the battery weight in the snout before a bunch of lead weights...

Dont tell me about projects, I have the Mossie, a TF P-40 and an ESM Typhoon on the go at the moment.....time? what time?

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 3:19 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		lol...why do we choose to have soo many projects....But anyways ill be going with the 2x 4s 3000mah batteries

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 4:45 PM   
david polley


 

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Status: offline 		Cathurga,

    Yes they still produce these...I don't think you need to be concerned about that...I know it is one of there best sellers....

These models are manufacturered in China...Nitoplanes and Raidentech have just about been the only distributors for this model exept when they first came out...

     Giant Scale Planes was the first american distributer for this kit of which that did not last very long...I suspect folks were sending them back for replacement or refund when they first started distributing these...If you go way back to the very first page of this thread  you will read about all of the defects in the design that made the kit a whole lot worse than what they produce today......

    I can tell you my friend that if Great Planes, Hangar 9, Top Flight, or any other quality manufacturer wanted to kit this as an ARF with the same dimensions but put the quality in the entire kit, I know CMP would go bust on this..Until then all we have is what they giving us from our Asian friends.....

    I can also tell all of our fine kit manufacturers out there that if you would just take the chance on kitting this model for us, I bet you would sell hundreds....We are all starving for a good quality kit of the De Havilland Mosquito.....I say $499.00 or less....

    I will be the first in line to buy one.....

David

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/17/2013 11:02 PM   
kahloq



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathurga

6S will blow the ESC to pieces on any good sized prop. You would need to use 4S packs for a motor of that KV.

I had the same problem when I was looking at using the 700Kv motors...too much revs off of 6S. I think in the earlier posting I tried 4S and posted some figures....

Dave Polley, I think the biggest problem is that these planes are now no longer produced.



Apparently, you are not familiar with the rimfire .60 650kv motor. It is DESIGNED to run on 6s with a 12-13" prop. Please...make sure you know what you're talking about before preaching. It will NOT blow an esc to pieces. I have 3 of these motors running on 6s. I know how they perform. Specs specifically state 65 amp max constant to 85 amp burst. Naturally....someone wouldnt be flying full throttle all the time....so amp draw wont even be close to 60 amps constant. They are designed for torque to spin the 12" to 13" props on 6s. My .91's are spinning 13x8x3's and I rarely fly over 1/2 throttle, but that high speed low pass at full throttle cant be beat. Same would be true here using the rimfires.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLWV8&P=ML

A really good esc to use with the rimfire .60 would be the hobbywing pentium 80. Can be had on ebay for $38 each.

< Message edited by kahloq -- 1/18/2013 4:10 AM >

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 1:41 AM   
Dangaras



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Status: offline 		Aolean 42-60-600kv on 5 cell will turn 13*8*3  no problem. I fly a 16lb A-26 on two of these motors with two 5 cell, 4000, 25C. Lots of power, 6+ minutes.


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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 4:13 AM   
kahloq



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Status: offline 		A power 46 670kv on 5s will also turn 13x8x3's no problem. There are a fair number of combinations that will work out quite well in this mossie.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 6:59 AM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		Kahloq, I am grateful for you correcting me, and quite clearly I have either been misinformed by ecalc, or I simply dont know how to use it. Please can you take a look at this and comment on where you think I have gone wrong



I have made a few assumptions here as the model is a twin and I have been getting my numbers by inputting numbers as if for ONE motor only i.e, half the weight of what the model might expect to weigh (6.5kg's total, so 3,25kg's per motor) so that I can expect to see what the power rating is PER motor. I have also taken flight time and divided by 2 to get expected flight time (I know this isnt exact, but I would thnk ballpark is useful). Amps will be per motor so assuming load on battery for both would need to consider double the total amps (or thereabouts).

I feel terrible that I have been pushing out the wrong information to others. I am also concerned now about how this stacks up against the real world info that I have been getting from testing. I posted this information earlier.

Cells Motor Propellor Full Throttle Half Throttle
6S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 13x8x3 MAS 2000W 100A 1200W 50A
6S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 12x7 MAS E-Prop 1200W 80A 580W 23A
6S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 12x8x3 MAS 1500W 80A 600W 28A
4S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 13x8x3 MAS 800W 55A 300W 21A
6S 5000 Mah eFlite Power 60 13x8x3 MAS 800W 36A 500W 12A

I took readings at half throttle in order to see how much drop off there was in power and amps, so that I could get an idea of what would be happening, safely assuming that one does not fly around at full throttle.

Once again, apologies if my findings have been misleading, earlier on I did say that I am no expert at the electric side of this hobby (or any part of it for that matter). I will certainly refrain from posting any more findings of mine, and instead learn from those with the experience.

Andy, out.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 2:21 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		hmmm wow...so will the hobbywing platinum 60A be good for the rimfire .60?

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 5:40 PM   
kahloq



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Status: offline 		Cathurga...ecalc has its merits, but, isnt accurate with everything. A good base of sorts, but definitely not completely reliable.
One example....the e-flite power 60...ecalc states the motor is overheating on a 16x10x3 prop. Problem is, I know that isnt the case from real world use. There are a ton of people using that setup and even Horizon hobby recommends this setup as standard for their 60 size e-conversions. Horizon definitely isnt going to recommend a setup thats going to overheat.

You listed a turnigy 700kv motor running on 6s using the 13x8x3 prop that you actually took readings from.
6S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 13x8x3 MAS 2000W 100A 1200W 50A

I bolded the part that you should take note of. Real world, you saw 100amps on a 700kv motor running 6s. While not the same manufacturer, its reasonable to assume that a rimfire 650kv motor running the same battery and prop would max out at LESS, yet ecalc has it well over 100. In reality, the 60 rimfire on that 13x8x3 would see 90amps MAX. But, you'd really never see that either since as you run a motor, the voltage in the battery will be steadily decreasing. You MIGHT see a spike close to that on the ground if you punched full throttle from standstill.

badazzg....id recommend the 80, not the 60 since the burst amps on the rimfire is 85. The hobbywing 80a burst is 100 so it can cover that...while the 60a esc burst level of 80 cant. There is only an $18 difference between the 60a and 80a hobbywing escs. Id advise NOT skimping in this area.


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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 6:12 PM   
pentaxman


 

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Status: offline 		Cathurga

I do not mean to offend and I am sure we would all like life to be as simple as the way you made assumptions in the statement above.
There are just so many areas there that I don't know how to start.

Lets start simply.
The calcualtor in itself is a device to make comparrisons rather that providing accurate predictions. Use it as a guide and you will be fine.

In the screen shot you limited the ESC to 60A and you are trying to fly the whole plane on one motor. That would be why you got the statement in red on the screen. If you are using 2 motors then neither will be working so hard as the one in your example, but at the same time you can't just assume it will be halved.
The 2 motor machine will accelerate much quicker than the single motor machine with less current draw because neither is having to work at full power.

Do a brief experiment, run a one motor machine through your calculator and see the current draw. Now reduce the throttle setting by 10% and you will find that the current draw has not dropped by 10% but much more and this can be borne out by doing experiments with your own planes and a watt meter.

This alone will show the limitations of such software.
Now do not get me wrong, I use something very similar (MotoCalc) to work out set ups for my planes one of which is a Mosquito (but not the one being discussed in this thread) and I find it incredibly useful but the slightest error or assumption can make big differences, different type of pack by the same manufacturer being a good example. Also you need to allow for "manufacturers tolerances" which again make a difference.

Good luck with your machine, the Mosquito is a superb machine and should be modelled more often.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 6:51 PM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		Pentaxman & Kahloq, of course my assumptions were not trying to derive at an exact science. In the example above, I have assumed the wieght of the plane to be 3250kg but the AUW of the mosquito should come out at about double that. In essence (and all 'assumptions' aside) this motor setup above has a Thrust to Weight ratio of 2.3:1 and SHOULD in theory, be able to fly the plane on ONE motor. But I know that this is NOT a good way to get ecalc to help with a selection. The point that I was getting to (misguided or not) is that this setup above, is overkill for the plane, and would be putting some components at risk (potentially).

In my real world calculations, this was done on a static 'bench' and one would expect the amp draw to decrease a lot once the prop starts to unload, and in turn, as the throttle is lowered, the amp draw again would be diminished. This is why I took the readings on static, and at half throttle in order to get a 'worst case' scenario. In my final selection of power plant, which is a 400KV motor turning a 13x10x3 prop, I believe that I have a great balance of power, speed and amp draw that would be suitable for me. I even see that with my combo selection, the ecalc warns of prop stall. I am hoping that this warning is when the plane is static or at very low speed. I have no idea of when this prop may unload enough to not stall. But that again is a trade off to get more airspeed and fly the plane on the wing and not the prop. Sure, it needs enough runway to build up some speed (this I have), and I am likely going to face some problems with 'going around' if I cock up a landing approach

My comments to badazz configuration is that that seems a lot of amp draw that is unecessary and MAY do some damage, where since he is still buying components, there are better options than that setup on 6S. Maybe 4S or 5S might be a better idea. In my limited experience, I have always tried to not stress the gear, and considering that I already have 6S packs, I wanted to use them and not buy more. The resultant is that I know have two 700Kv motors that wont get used in this. A pair of eflite 60's that will likely not get used in this plane either.....and I have a set of 400Kv Turnigy's that look like they will do the trick.
The plus side is that I have a TF P-40 that will get an eflite motor....and I get to use my 6S packs.

I am learning from this, and ecalc has been helpful in getting me to a point where I LIKE the setup that I am putting in, because it has helped me check boxes that I would previously had missed......and destroyed the plane.....

All comments taken as constructive and helpful...

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 6:58 PM   
cathurga


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kahloq



You listed a turnigy 700kv motor running on 6s using the 13x8x3 prop that you actually took readings from.
6S 5000 Mah Turnigy L5055-C 700Kv 13x8x3 MAS 2000W 100A 1200W 50A

I bolded the part that you should take note of. Real world, you saw 100amps on a 700kv motor running 6s. While not the same manufacturer, its reasonable to assume that a rimfire 650kv motor running the same battery and prop would max out at LESS, yet ecalc has it well over 100. In reality, the 60 rimfire on that 13x8x3 would see 90amps MAX. But, you'd really never see that either since as you run a motor, the voltage in the battery will be steadily decreasing. You MIGHT see a spike close to that on the ground if you punched full throttle from standstill


Yeah, understood. When I put the original spec in ecalc for this motor, I got 125A as their draw for that setup......power to weight was about 2.6:1

I was a little weirded out to see the difference of 25A in my testing, but als assumed there were going to be corrections on unloading and throttle use. I have to be honest and say that the thing that disturbed me the most is that props this size did not seem comfortable at that speed. Smaller two bladed props always seem (to me anyway) to be comfortable at 12000rpm plus.....but bigger props like this appear (again, to me) to be doing a better job at around 8000 - 10000rpm....

Again, all constructive chaps.

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/18/2013 9:22 PM   
badazzgti03


 

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Status: offline 		wow....well a lot of info to take in for the electric set up.....well I already have the hobbywing platinum 60A's on hand...So 4S or 5S on the lipo??

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/19/2013 1:14 AM   
kahloq



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Status: offline 		Id say go with 5s and use power 46 670kv motors to spin 13x8x3s. Turnigy has a g46 same kv for much cheaper at hobbyking then an e-flite power 46

They are in stock at the USA warehouse which also means cheap shipping...$46 each
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__35026__Turnigy_G46_Brushless_Outrunner_670kv_46_Glow_USA_Warehouse_.html

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/19/2013 1:08 PM   
cathurga


 

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Status: offline 		Well people, here are some 'real world' figures, I got her out onto the test strip and hooked up the wattmeter. I must say that the figures are not too far off what ecalc says, so I have vindicated myself a little (I feel better now, but know that I am still in the wrong for the most part, read on).

Full throttle figures:
1350Watts at 55A, peaking at 60A (ecalc figures, assuming single motor multiplied by two = 1380 Watts at 70A)

3/4 throttle:
1000Watts at 32A

1/2 Throttle
600Watts at 16A

Unfortunately I am unable to see the revs at these settings, but there was very little strain on the motors and very little heat build up on them or battery, and I did a check on one motor to compare with both. For this test I got:

Full throttle
650Watts at 30A

I was also unable to measure the thrust at the moment, but she wanted to scoot for sure. I realise the I shouldnt rely on the ecalc but I am hoping the thrust measurements that it spits out are within a reasonable accuracy level. For the setup that I have, one motor, at half the weight of the plane gives a thrust ratio of just under 1.2:1 and anything over 1:1 is ok in my books. I have assumed the planes weight to be around 14lbs (6.5Kg) but I cannot measure that until it is all built and CG is set. I have a little building to do yet, so will concentrate on getting that done. I might maiden her on this setup even though it is only offering 100W/lb which might be ok, and if she survives, put on the 13x10x3's (that I am still nervous about cutting) and that would get me closer to 120W/lb and a bit more pitch speed.

Anyways, all this calculating is doing my head in.....as soon as she is flying I will be happier.

Asl always, thanks for the help guys....

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RE: DeHavilland Mosquito - 1/19/2013 4:04 PM   
kahloq



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From: Fort Collins, CO, USA
Status: offline 		Your using the turnigy 400kv motors for those test numbers? If so, is it by chance the turnigy easymatch g60 400kv? If so...you've got plenty of headroom. Ive mentioned before ive got several of those motors.......2 in an esm 95" me-110 spinning 16x10x3s and a couple single engine planes with same prop.
Obviously amp draw is higher then yor 13x8x3s, but then again....bigger plane....more room for batteries. The esm me-110 runs 2x 6s 6000s in parallel.

Anyway.....sounds like your right on the bubble power wise. 100watts per pound should be ok and rather scale. 120 would be better

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(in reply to cathurga)
       Post #: 1525

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