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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 1:01:35 AM   
mr_matt



Posts: 6732
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Oak Park, CA,
Status: offline 		An eyewitness has posted that the plane did not even have a PCM reciever.....wow....

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Matt
JetCat rep

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 1:42:37 AM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6821
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

An eyewitness has posted that the plane did not even have a PCM reciever.....wow....


AMA already mandates failsafe throttle control on turbine powered models - I wonder if models over a certain weight or engine size will soon be required to follow suit in the wake of this incident ...

Gordon

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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:01:35 AM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline 		seriously speaking,

does it really matter what the weight, engine size, or type is.

just mandate throtle failsafe on everything.

it "COULD" be built into every radio system sold.

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for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:03:11 AM   
8178



Posts: 3092
Joined: 5/25/2004
From: _ , USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc

quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

An eyewitness has posted that the plane did not even have a PCM reciever.....wow....


AMA already mandates failsafe throttle control on turbine powered models - I wonder if models over a certain weight or engine size will soon be required to follow suit in the wake of this incident ...

Gordon



Hopefully all of us, and especially the AMA, can learn from this horrific event. Because the battery pack was still working OK after the crash, failsafe might have prevented the high powered impact force of the crash. The negative impression of this event on our hobby impacts all R/C flyers even if you do not fly Giant Aircraft.

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:22:31 AM   
iflyj3



Posts: 1013
Joined: 5/18/2002
From: Paris, KY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 8178
Hopefully all of us, and especially the AMA, can learn from this horrific event. Because the battery pack was still working OK after the crash, failsafe might have prevented the high powered impact force of the crash. The negative impression of this event on our hobby impacts all R/C flyers even if you do not fly Giant Aircraft.


Maybe the AMA will go back to simpler times like in the 1960's when they only allowed a .61 maximum size engine!

Has anyone really addressed the condition that giant models may be our undoing? For example, the FAA is looking at us real hard. And yes, I have a few large models!

Flame suit on......

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:23:08 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		You guys are starting to sound like the EC. Before you know it, you will "what if" 5 new rules before the facts are in. What if the battery pulled loose and unpluged itself? What if the servo tray broke loose? How many fields can not meet the standards of an ideal field? What if we get rid of every field that does not meet some idealistic goals? On other forums, there is already debate as to whether model weight should be reduced. What if we lower the weight of all planes to 22 pounds?

Discussing possible safety issues is one thing, implying the AMA should immediately do something... anything... is another matter.

(in reply to 8178)
       Post #: 31

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:23:47 AM   
rw Guinn



Posts: 463
Joined: 1/9/2002
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		BTW-300 feet is 3.4 seconds at 60 MPH, which doesn't seem like much, but you'd be surprised at how much you can do in 3 or 4 seconds.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mongo

seriously speaking,

does it really matter what the weight, engine size, or type is.

just mandate throtle failsafe on everything.

it "COULD" be built into every radio system sold.

Don't know about you, bucky, but even at 1200 RPM I don't want any personal dealings with a carbon fiber prop of any size. All "Failsafe" will do is idle it down--unless you want to kill the engine every time there is a glitch in the signal. That could be more exciting than one can handle, too.
And "failsafe" does not cover you when you have battery failure, linkage failure, connector failure, switch failure, servo failure.
Imagine, if you will, as you get the tail up, a cicada is nailed by the prop. Part of his shell gets lodged in the throttle linkage, and his internal fluids are flung into the radio, causing immediate failure. the thing is set for very gentle climb, at full throttle. Where does failsafe get you there? Sure, its a bizarre scenario--but I've seen brand-new transmitters fail--bad solder joint to the gymbal pot.

there is no such thing as "failsafe", "murphy-proof, or idiot proof. Additionally, there is no "completely safe" short of the grave.
Accidents do happen. all we can do is our best to avoid unnecessary accidents. More rules and regulations don't help a bit--especially if they don't address whatever the real issue is.
BTW-300 feet is 3.4 seconds at 60 MPH, which doesn't seem like much, but you'd be surprised at how much you can do in 3 or 4 seconds.

Roger

edited to add the math

< Message edited by rw Guinn -- 8/30/2004 9:29:48 PM >

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:26:23 AM   
Falcon_az


 

Posts: 90
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Troy, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Casey Rowe..., a wish from our family to you and your family for a very speedy recovery!

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 2:49:31 AM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline 		actually:

every single aircraft i fly, plank or rotorwing, has the failsafe set to KILL the motor.

now, in 20 or so years of PCM operation, i have yet to have my first instance of "failsafe operation"


the real point was, if yer gona mandate failsafe for anything, it should apply to everything.

< Message edited by mongo -- 8/30/2004 8:51:27 PM >

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for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

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RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 3:16:12 AM   
blw



Posts: 4602
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Auburn, AL, USA
Status: offline 		quote:

How about a big net, like they do for golf ranges? If the pit is going to be just 25 feet from the flightline, then 8' high chain link fences should protect the guys working on their planes.

And we need to get away from this anti-government, anti-lawyer paranoia that prevents us from taking meaningful steps towards making the sport safer. When we are more afraid of the so-called "knee jerk reaction" than to the horror of what actually happened, we are being incredibly insensitive to the victims of our complacence.



Not many fields can afford big nets, and landowners will object. Besides, what about high winds, lightning, etc associated with big nets?

Too many rules always ruins original intent. The sport is as safe as it can get with aircraft running propellors, turbines, etc. You can't make a rule to protect from everything down to a cut fingernail, stubbed toe, whatever. Maybe looking at the ratio of safe flights vs incidents is in order. I bet the accident percentage is a fraction of one percent. Being leery of over regulation is not a knee jerk reaction!

(in reply to Mike in DC)
       Post #: 35

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 3:38:48 AM   
Gordon Mc



Posts: 6821
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: San Jose, CA,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blwblw
The sport is as safe as it can get with aircraft running propellors, turbines, etc.


I disagree. There is always room for improvement, rather than being complacent and asumming that nothing more can be done.

I believe that the key here is for us (individuals as well as the AMA) to always be willing to consider many options even if they may sound a little odd at first glance, then carefully weigh those that seem the most promising in terms of providing a suitable improvement in safety without restricting the hobby unnecessarily. i.e it should basically be a cost-benefit analysis. Doing so should avoid the introduction of unnecessary rules (which are often created without taking the time to asses whether they really are addressing a problem) while simultaneously ensuring that if there are valid lessons to be learned and improvemnts to be made, we don't miss out on those possibilities due to some blind resistance to change.

Gordon

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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley
"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak." - Michel de Montaigne

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       Post #: 36

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 3:51:35 AM   
littlecrankshaf



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From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blwblw

I bet the accident percentage is a fraction of one percent.


Even that would be WAY unacceptably high IMO

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       Post #: 37

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 3:55:21 AM   
rw Guinn



Posts: 463
Joined: 1/9/2002
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Just posted to AMA-Dist-8 list:
"Here is more info on the accident from Mike P. at Ohio Model Planes. There
is a very good message here.
Larry Cox

Bryon and Casey are very special to OMP and Casey is one of our sponsored
pilots here in OH. Bryon called me up Sun the day after the event to ask
for as much prayer as possible for Casey. If you don't know Casey, think
about your favorite uncle who has more love to offer than just about anyone.
A truly caring person and Christian man. Casey is out of the woods but is
undergoing very painful rehab and this will last some time. He may try to
come down to the DOGS show but don't know yet.

What happened was the plane went into some typr of failure (either battery,
swithces, PCM lock, just don't know). Bryon was not at fault ans the plane
actually flew around the field and most, including Casey thought it was
doomed to crash into the woods. Bryon said the plane flew completely around
the back of the field including a barn before it came back into the pits and
hit Casey.

Almost impossible to believe and Casey is really lucky to be alive. A guess
a lesson to be learned is never take your eyes off an IFE
(in-flight-emergency) situation."
So, let's wait till all the data are in. so far we have crash on take-off, with PCM, without PCM (from an "eye witness" no less)
NOBODY knows diddle yet!
stop the blaming, new rules gotta be made, we're all gonna lose our privelege hype. NOW! let's get some real information in first, OK?

Roger

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 38

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 4:08:21 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Let's suppose for a minute that a PCM receiver with a fail safe set to cut the engine had been used, and would have avoided this incident. OK, that's fine, we pass a rule requiring PCM on every plane. The next thing you know, we have the park flyers who are using inexpensive single conversion receivers up in arms. Why should a 10 oz. plane be required to have a Rx whose value exceeds that of the plane being flown with dubious safety value for that size ship? Sure sounds similar to the no tail touch rule. An across the board ban that makes no sense for some parts of the hobby?

Assuming the first hand account alluded to by Mr_Matt is this one: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=2132576&tostyle=tm , it would appear that Casey Rowe was hit as he came out of the tent to locate the plane. Does it make more sense to ban tents? Had he been where he could see the plane, the injuries might never have taken place.

(in reply to Gordon Mc)
       Post #: 39

RE: bad things sometimes happen - 8/31/2004 4:53:41 AM   
mongo


 

Posts: 1252
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline 		a year ago, i woulda been with ya jr, but:

there are cheep IPD RX available, berg comes to mind, that have fail safe set ability.

mandating that the failsafe that the tx loads to the rx be throtle kill, would not cost anyone a dime, just a few lines of programming.

< Message edited by mongo -- 8/30/2004 10:55:15 PM >

_____________________________

for muroc1, frank, none of the above is intended to be either bullying or insulting, it is just the way i communicate.

(in reply to J_R)