gyroscopic progression (Full Version)

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Zpat -> gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 1:18:04 PM)

I've got a Saito .80 that's about 4 or 5 years old and it sounds like the bearings have given up.
It's been on a steady diet of Cool Power 30% helicopter fuel and rarely has run over 10000 rpm. Its been used in 3D airplanes since new and has been stored in the off season in a warm and dry enviroment using Marvel Mystery oil as an after run oil.
I was wondering what the effects of gyroscopic progression would have on the engine. I've been running an APC 14x4W and it is a heavy prop.

So what is the general thinking of the effects of gyroscopic progression and engine life?




ZAGNUT -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 1:29:56 PM)

i would say that it does increase the radial load on the bearing enough to cause accelerated wear.

high radial loads are the reason you see needle or roller bearings on many saws, wheel bearings and other industrial machines


dave




LearjetMech -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:04:19 PM)

Its actually gyroscopic procession!




Dsegal -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:27:16 PM)

Not quite. It is actually precession.




Blade47 -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:33:17 PM)

Hmmm ... gyroscopic procession is the effect of a input to a spinning object that takes place 90 dg from the input location




Bodge -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:36:15 PM)

Gyroscopic procession will have most effect at high revs during tight manouvres or direction changes. The changes in angular velocity (revs may not change, but velocity does) during these turns is subject to conservation of energy laws, i.e. any changes have to be made up elsewhere in the system to maintain equilibrium. These forces act through the bearings to try and make the plane twist. This is not torque reaction.

On radial saws the bearings are supporting linear cutting forces not gyroscopic since the rotation axis is not changing: in a model engine the gyroscopic procession applies the load of a changing fraction of the prop mass to the bearings - not greatly significant.

The firing forces applied by the rod will apply a greater load on the bearings than gyroscopic forces. With a heavy prop the firing forces are working against the inertia and aerodynamic resistance of the prop so the load will be higher anyway because of the larger more massive prop. Clearly gyroscopic forces will be greater here, but will still only be some fraction of the prop's weight

In short - gyroscopic forces are a minor component in the system of forces acting through model engine bearings. In fact model engine bearings (ignoring corrosion) have quite an easy life assuming you are not smacking the deck with the prop too often.
Mick.




Bodge -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:38:55 PM)

No: it's pregression...[>:]




Blade47 -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:41:52 PM)

Good answer there Mick .... that would be why the engineers on the Bell 204 where pi$$ed at me from doing hammer heads and breaking the motor mounts :-)

Pete




Bodge -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:45:34 PM)

Jeez Pete, that's taking the pi$$...




Bodge -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 2:56:04 PM)

The rotating mass of flat-out helicopter blades going through 90 degree direction changes would stress the drive train rather. Does sound entertaining, though. Full size 3D?




Blade47 -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 3:03:46 PM)

edit




Blade47 -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 3:09:28 PM)

edit




downunder -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/15/2004 5:36:55 PM)

Gyroscopic PREcession plays only a very minor part in the loads on the engine bearings. It's effect is noticeable (but barely) in CL stunt where a model might do a hard turn and pull maybe 25G's. Precession yaws the nose either left or right depending on which way the turn is made (up or down) but the affect is so small that a few degrees movement of a Rabe rudder counteracts the yaw.

So basically, G forces put the biggest load on bearings in the pitching plane while precession gives a much smaller force at 90 degrees to the pitching plane.




LearjetMech -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/16/2004 2:27:01 AM)

Awe fooey! I try to be mr smartypants and it bit me right in the arse. yes it is precession! Thats why I work on fixed wings. I flunked helo's in A&P (J/K).




downunder -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/16/2004 3:39:43 AM)

Which reminds me that precession is used to make a heli rotor tilt through the cyclic control. If you want to tilt the rotor up at the back to pick up speed (from a hover for instance) then the retreating blade increases pitch at 90 degrees to the fuselage while the advancing blade decreases pitch on the opposite side. This slightly shifts the centre of lift of the rotor 90 degrees to the side of the rotor head which you'd think would tilt the rotor sideways but precession makes the force act 90 degrees later (in the direction of rotation) so the rotor tilts up from the back to get the heli moving forwards.




David_Moen -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/16/2004 4:18:35 AM)

This is also used to make rapid changes in direction on a motorcycle. It's amazing hom many grizzled veteran bikers look at you like you are a loon when you start talking about counter-steering. Precession is an incredibly powerfull force - it allows a rider to snap a bike from full lean one direction to full lean the other in a hearbeat.




Zpat -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/16/2004 12:55:55 PM)

I have seen crankshafts break in flight on on 100cc-150cc engines and they attribute it to 3D flying.
Precession will break crankshafts but hardly effects bearings?




jessiej -> RE: gyroscopic progression (9/16/2004 4:52:24 PM)

[ it allows a rider to snap a bike from full lean one direction to full lean the other in a hearbeat. ]

And, on occasion, it allows the riders' ear to make contact with the planet.[&o]

jess




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